Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Sorry that I have to disappoint those of you who got their faces fixed because they thought the replies of the usual suspects would silence me for lack of arguments. I simply haven't found the time before to read all the intelligent stuff and to reply to it. But now I do:

When I first introduced the Zeros™ to the public I was well aware that the pack of morph breeder would think they have a field day because Stöckl the hypocrite went to the dark side.

I assumed correctly that their blinkers would not allow them to see the difference. So here it is:

There are only a few proven aberrant pristine wildlife forms of boa constrictor. Maybe the blood boas and for sure the Leopard Boas of Hans Winner. I have never lost a single bad word about these boas. I have even published the leopards in my book as a true locality specific boa constrictor with an aberrant pattern.
What did Hans Winner do with these true Sonoran Boas? He simply reproduced them and carried on reproducing them. Nothing else.
I don't see any wrong in doing this. There is no harm.

And here is the difference: What did the morph breeders do? They abused the Leopard strain for a truckload of morph projects such as albino leopards and so on. This was actually the reason why you guys over there were so keen on the leopards strain.
Since most of the morphs are supposedly of colombian ancestry and the Leopard boas are from Mexico what is the outcome of such projects? True Mexocolombian boas?

Since we are talking about colombian boas: I have read the indignant lines because the morphs are all supposedly true colombian boas. In view of this please spare me the bs.

By the way, dear Jeff Ronne, I have terminated a long term business partnership with an US breeder for good because he has offered me colombians which I identified as crossbreeds by talking to a breeder who produced the great parents of the male breeder. So there is no miracolous transformation on the border. Believe me, I check out what I get.

I also read you guys blame me because I am going to produce anerythristic Zeros™.

Here are the news: The father of the Zeros™ is anerythristic. So there is no way that I can prevent anery. specimens in the first litter of Zeros™ x Zeros™ or het Zeros™ x Zeros™.
You see, I don't need to produce crossbreeds like you guys.
The Zeros™ strain is of an amazing diversity. Specimens with a large amount of yellow, silver ones, specimens with an orange tail. And all purebreed longicaudas. And as long as I produce these animals (I hope I will) there will be no crossbreeding with other subspecies. And that's the difference.

By the way: The Zeros™ strain is a very strong one. The animals seem to be more hardy than the normal ones. Furhtermore I have got 3 Zeros™ out of a litter of 5 babies. I know a case where 26 babies were born from breeding a het albino boa to an albino boa. 25 of the babies were normal looking. One baby was albino and - dead. This is the worst of such cases I know but I also know similar ones.

I assume that the Zeros™ strain is very assertive.

Thank you for your time and don't take offence in my lines because I love you all )

Hermann

The # 1 Boa constrictor Website on the internet

-----
The #1 Boa constrictor website on the internet

The Anery gene is not normal(a color mutation or morph) so it doesn't matter how or when and if you had anything to do with it's introduction to the Zero. It's presence makes the "Zero" not pristine and what you proclaim to hate. Take care, Andrew

You can argue pristine genetic superiority like some other crazy German from the early 30's and 40's and we will find you to be insane , just as we did with Adolph. You are breeding zeros and will continue to produce them which is fine , but please dont push your pathetic twisted views on purity to us. Your opinion may be fine , but your nastiness is the purest thing that you have produced thus far.

It's Adolf not Adolph and I recall that I have read somewhere that the person who first uses the Nazi club in a discussion has lost it.
-----
The #1 Boa constrictor website on the internet

I wont argue that you know his spelling better that I. Your zeros are alredy a candy bar by the way.

Herman, you are refering to a corollary of Godwin's law which is "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1." or "Reductio ad Hitlerum". The corollary is that once one person makes Nazi or Hitler references about the other in the online debate, that person has lost the debate.

Not trying to win a debate , but rather quickly show the ridiculous nature of Mr Zero

Godwin's law, and the instant lack of credibility that anyone pulling the Nazi card exposes, are remarkable similar to Hermann assertions declaring everything, that he has not approved of in the Boa Constrictor world to be crosses.
-----
Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

I think you have a point Jeff. To add to your point, as far as Godwin's law goes, we should recognize the racism towards a fellow breeder, equating him with one of the worst mass-murderers of all time because he has a German name and is headstrong about a topic that others disagree with.

We also should recognize the level of insult to the families of the millions of Jews, Gays, Gypsies, disabled and other groups victimized in Hitler's Genocides because this is equating their slaughter with the technicalities of what pet snake should be bred with another.

Insults and ad-hominem are where people run to when they haven't the time, desire or smarts to convince others or at least present a convincing point.

Godwin's law, and the instant lack of credibility that anyone pulling the Nazi card exposes, are remarkable similar to Hermann assertions declaring everything, that he has not approved of in the Boa Constrictor world to be crosses.

since you are so sure about the purity, you really need to send the shed skins to Hans over here in the Great USA and let him make sure for you. You really wouldnt want to be claiming blue blood purity if they are not.

I am a little bit confused now. Please enlighten me as to the benefit of such a procedure?
I hope you don't tell me now that you want to prove the pure breeding with a skale counting?
Please tell me that you are not serious about it!
-----
The #1 Boa constrictor website on the internet

It is a little more advanced than that. Check with Dr Booth and he may be able to bring you up to speed.

It's spelled "scale", you seemed fixated on spelling earlier...

Herman I need you to pay me this much attention. I want to know what is your contempt against captive boa breeders reproducing captive bred animals that are healthy outside of whatever weakness may come along as a consequence of albinisms, which is a weak gene in humans, and many animals.

So my quesiton is if i buy a snake that i will place in a box that is lets say albino motley. then i bred it to a hypo jungle het albino and make in my opinion beautiful sunglow motley jungles, seemingly in your opinion theyd be abominations, when i intend to keep this boa in captivity for the resto of its life...

I want to understand you, and to do so i want to see your perspective. from my perspective i would agree with you that we are doing harm if were to intend to release morphs into the wild where they will unlikey survive for obvious reasons, but for captive reasons, these abominations, i consider works of art, will not be in of any harmful consequence as they would be in captivity in optimum conditions.

Last what is the point if we would all JUST make locality animals? they are being born in the wild already, and many in captivity too. however morphs we make in captivity can only be made and found in captivity, and i think it would be a shame not to see what these animals will look like. what is wrong with making art with natures beautiful random genetic anomolies.

Morphs are robust, eat terrific, breed readily, they are complete healthy captive boas with cool paint jobs. show me the harm?

Well put!
-----
"Go Big or Go Home" Muscle Morph Constrictors Inc. Long Island, New York * MuscleMorphConstrictors@yahoo.com

It's not that hard to understand. Some people value some traits over others. Herman's ideas on keeping animals true to their origins is a valid position. If it is his position that others should think the same, well, it isn't a solid position to have.

The same ideas can be seen in the automotive world. Some see a '68 Camaro in showroom style as the best presentation of that car. Some would rather see the same car converted into a HotRod. In the long run, the showroom version of a car almost always wins out in value, but in the short term, the HotRod might find more fans.

I personally think that there are a few morphs that are nice to look at and I would enjoy having them in my collection. But I think it's a fair comparison with classic cars. The classic car took thousands of people to design, construct, transport and sell. The HotRod took one, maybe a few guys with a bunch of tools, base car and some know how and a cool Car is morphed from an established classic.

The Natural form of these animals is the result of Hundreds of Millions of years of Evolution to arrive at the current form. Morphs are the result of one or a few guys with some the right tools, stock and know-how and a cool Morph is established from a classic in just a few years.

HotRods and Classics are both cool in their own ways. It's probably much easier to just deal with those that like what you like and move on.

Frankly it looks like Herman will eventually win the argument because those of us here in the USA are probably going to lose the ability to keep ANY boa constrictor, morph or pure. While he'll go on enjoying his hobby of purebred's.

Doug T

Doug,
Also be aware that "true locale" boas in many instances represent highly inbred lines. For example, how many founder animals are there in the Sonoran locale projects, the Tarahumara, Crawl Cays, etc. While we try to outbreed our lines, in essence our lines are pretty much all related and thus outbreeding is essentially gaining little. We are line breeding, and this is highly likely the reason Hermann has stumbled across his Zeros (TM). Without deliberately inbreeding, by even crossing his "unrelated lines", the chance of increased homozygosity is elevated due to the common origin of many of the samples that left the country.

Warren
-----
Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

I like the classic car analogy, but there's a third group that should be included there.

Let's imagine a '68 Camaro (GREAT car) that 3 people get ahold of.
1) Classic car restorer who does it like it's on the showroom floor and stays true to the original form of that particular car. For instance, they buy a '68 Camaro with the RPO L89 engine.
2) Classic car restorer who maxes out the original options even though that particular car (VIN) didn't come with the options. For instance, they buy a '68 Camaro that DIDN'T come with the RPO L89 engine.
3) Hot rod morpher

Numbers 1 and 3 were covered in your post. Number 2 is who I want to focus on.

What Hermann is saying is that the person who takes a normal '68 Camaro and upgrades it with a RPO L89 engine is a morpher and deserves ridicule and all of the vitriol he can muster. Why? The RPO L89 option IS an option for the '68. In fact, he has one! It's not like person number 2 dropped a 454 in the car - but that's what Hermann would accuse them of (morphing the car even though it's consistent with original data).

Hermann's always been a little crazy with his stance that seemed to imply that morph animals are abominations and (implied conclusion that they) don't deserve to be breathing. But, his

line has just added hypocrisy to his list of endearing traits.

jb
-----
What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

I agree with the basic thinking of your analogy however it's yours and mine. I still want to hear his.

I disagree with your assumption boas will be banned.

I hope you're right on the bans.

Hermann,

You've made a really sweet looking boa, I think we can all agree. However, if you don't produce these faster than sterlings than you will probably be left behind in the US market. Now can you please hurry up and produce more of them for us in the US, so we can crossbreed the crap out of that animal and improve it with some other blood?

In addition, I'm also curious as to how strong this gene really is if there were only 5 babies in the litter, any thoughts?

Thanks,
Anthony

And, (according to Hermy: "The animals seem to be more hardy than the normal ones." ), since the Zero MORPH IS GENETICALLY STRONGER THAN THE SOURCE WILD TYPE, I suppose it'd be unethical of us NOT to use his MORPH'S SUPERIOR GENETIC FAULTS to enhance the weak ones we normally work with...

I'm with you, I wish he'd just shut up and get busy cranking out his version of genetic abominations for us to further abominate!

Mark

I would like to break away from this "argument" for a second. You state that the Leopard boa is a Sonoran morph. I have heard from many people (many Europeans and a prominent German) that the true locality of the original boas was never proven, but only suspected to be Leopard. Could you provide me with an exact breakdown of the ancestry of this morph?

Also, I like others feel that you have become a complete hypocrite regarding your new stance on "morphs". You slate albino x anerythristics as something inexcusable, yet both originate from true Colombian locality boas. I personally breed many color morphs, and in general try to keep them locality pure (e.g. hypo, anerythristic, and leopard Sonorans; various true Nicaraguan morphs, etc), but I see the beauty in some of the locality crosses. I also see great beauty in locale pure animals and strive to maintain highly pure lines in my collection.

Warren
-----
Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

How dare you question what Hermann has already stated as fact Dr. Booth. Hermann does his homework. Hermann knows.

For instance, did you know that the original Motley Boa was not a Colombian at all? That's right, it was imported as a farm bred Boa from Colombian, but was actually serendipitously produced by that mad Boa scientist in South Africa. That's right. Sven VonHitenburgermiester obtained an Argentine Boa from North Central India when she was a neonate in 1991. A year later he obtained the father of that original Motley from an unnamed source from Ireland. A rumor says that a very young Boa enthusiast by the name of Warren may have been involved. Warren? Coincidence? However, that is a little mystery we may never fully understand. The ancestry of the male animal was unknown.

After breeding the two of them together, the single original Motley Boa was produced precisely as VonHitenburgermiester had predicted. The deception was nearly complete. Then Sven VonHitenburgermiester knew he would have to smuggle his new creation, and ultimately crossed Boa, into Colombia to be brought in with a shipment of farm raised baby Boas. The exact details of this operation again are sketchy.

That shipment was earmarked for Germany, but due to a mistake by one of the pickers, much to the indignation of Sven VonHitenburgermiester, it was inadvertently shipped to Strictly Reptiles in Florida with hundreds of other pure Colombian Boa babies, and the rest they say is history. The is the history that only a diligent detective like myself would be able to find the truth about. Hence that we all now know, in addition to Hermann, that the Motley mutation was a cross from the very beginning. It was destined to be that way by Sven. And here all this time you people thought that original Motley was Colombian. Silly Americans. It's a shame there is only person who is able to find the real truth in the ancestry of the Boas all over the world. A terrible shame.

-----
Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Don't mean to stir up debate, and I really don't care, but are you saying that the Original Motley was Argentine? I have cross bred a lot of Argentines, and I'm quite sure the Original Motley was not a cross. Motley has popped up in Mexican, Colombian, Argentine, and a few regions in Central America. It just pops. The story just doesn't make sense to me, and I may not know what you are talking about, but I think it sounds rather silly to smuggle some Boas into Colombia from Europe or India area just to send them to a Europe Country? That's A lot of work, and I would think it much easier to send anything from India to Europe. It could all be a "good story", I don't think it applies to the Motley Colombian and My founding Male Norman. I agree with what Johnathon Brady has said in a Post I wish I could link to my Site on Pure Breds and crosses. Everyone should read it!!!!!!

The Truth is anytime you Import/Export or Keep/breed/buy/sell a Boa Constrictor "Regardless of where it comes from" We are required by Laws of CITES to Guarantee that the Animals are NOT to be released into the Wild and are considered Out of the Ecosystem of their Natural environment. We as keepers would NEVER release them. And Cites laws apply to all countries that allow them to be kept in Captivity. Also, it is nearly Impossible for anyone to pick a bloodline from the wild unless they caught a Pregnant female. Even with those bloodlines, you would never know where the Male came from. Most females are bred by 3 to 20 different Males in a Wild Cycle. To determine exact bloodlines is very very hard to do from Wild Caught Animals. Once they are bred out of the Wild, they are just the product of our own personal enjoyment.

Oops it's been awhile since I posted here so I meant to add.. (long winded)

I think your Boas are Pretty Herman, I like them. However, what are you going to do with them? Keep them "herman" pure until you one day realized you need some new Bloodlines, and treck over to South America and try to pick the location where the trapper "Told" you he found them? Than get some more bloodlines? Good luck with that one. Been there, done that, and it SUCKED... Learned a lot though.
I love the Morphs, I love the Localities, but lets be honest. All the Boas we breed in Captivity for Morph or "Locality look" we are using our Best judgment of what we THINK the female should be bred with. This is NOT what true Nature intends to do. At this point, it all comes down to what you Like and what you don't like in the looks. Bloodlines and Health of the animals should always be improved when working with morphs and localities.
If you work with them or study them scientifically, or keep and breed Morphs, or Pet Boas, it is all good to me. To each his own.
Pick what you like, but don't slam others for liking what you may not like Herman. I don't think Mr. Ronne would ever intentionally sell you bloodlines you deem to be "not pure" if he believed they were pure. He breeds morphs too, so you assume he somehow tried to deceive you. Your topics seem to draw debate. We breed common Boa constrictors for heavens Sakes. The more we can breed them and keep the demand off of the Wild with good bloodlines, the better off we are and our Boas are.
Jeremy Stone

Hi Jeremy.

I made it all up Jeremy. I tried to make it as outrageous and silly as I could so everyone knew I was just being sarcastic. I was actually illustrating how rediculous it was very anyone, from anywhere on the planet, to presume that only they had locality pure animals. An Argentine from India? I guess I should have said Antarctica. LOL

Of course the original Motley was Colombian and probably every Motley born in the US that descended from Norman was probably pure Colombian for the first four or five years of their reproduction. It was a while before any other locality was bred into them. I also agree with the other things you wrote as well Jeremy.
-----
Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Prof. Jeff,
Your ability to accurately trace the true origin of the motley boa has amazed me. How did you realize "Warren" in Ireland was involved. lol. The truth is out there.

I think this whole Zero ordeal has taught many people an important lesson. Some people cannot be trusted. In this case, I have Zero respect for someone many idolize for his purity.

I shall continue to breed both locale and morph, but I think its time we all register our boas on Ancestry.com. The German version - Boaancestry.de is apparently perfect.

Warren
-----
Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

My previous post was written entirely out of my head with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek. In other words... it was a joke. A PURE Colombian! As pure as they get pure!
-----
Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

What? Nooo? What? lol.

Warren
-----
Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

OK, lol I'm sorry. I was like WHAT??? Norman was Argentine from some dude from India/German/Sweden that was named Warren? lol

That Warren guy... gotta love him!
-----
Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

I don't trust him for a minute. Sounds like he should be tall and not very foreign at all

Warren (the not so tall and very foreign)
-----
Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

He is tall in my eyes... but that foreign thing is hard to shake...
-----
Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Shoot! I really hoped "Sven VonHitenburgermiester" was a real name ,lol

I just hope that Sven VonHitenburgermiester doesn't come after me for spilling the beans...
-----
Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Thank you for proving the point Hermann Stoeckl. You make it so easy.

One very interesting thing that shouldn’t surprise anyone is that before Hermann became involved in the Morph game, ALL Morphs were weak artificial Boas. This is what Hermann informed us of. The cross bred artificial Boa point is the stand that Hermann made loudest of anyone, but the artificial weak Morph point, somehow entirely ignored by Hermann in his most recent posting here, is not forgotten by those paying attention.

What is particularly interesting is that Hermann has been able to embrace the Patternless North West Peruvian Boas with both arms. The other interesting fact is that since this is a mutation promulgated and promoted by Hermann, it not only is perfectly healthy like the wild type Boas, but Hermann’s mutant artificial Boas are actually stronger than the normal animal of the same locality. Hermann wrote, “The animals seem to be more hardy than the normal ones.” Of course they are Hermann. They are the new SUPER BOAS. Isn’t that interesting? But somehow it is not at all surprising. We would expect nothing less from the only person who checks things out.

The FIRST Boa “Zero”:

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t9/foreverboas/zero/z022508d.jpg
-----
Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

I need your help, where did the arabesque morph come from ? Steve Hammond must have gotten a shipment by mistake. My research shows that a corn snake actually bred his columbian and hence the arabesque. Pleas help with any other info you may have. Thanks, and please dont keep us waiting too long.

The new "Zero TM"( also apparently an anery form) shows that a pair of boas from a small population of wc animals can have two recessive mutations and make a designer snake. From this tiny sample one can only imagine the many recessive, dominant, and codominant mutations and the countless possibilities of designer morphs coming from wild origins in a single population.

The fact that these mutations are found in a variety of species in the snake world is not an artifact of captivity it reflects what exists in the wild. An example of this: the “white sided” mutation found in Tiger snakes, Blood Pythons, rats snakes, pine snakes, king snakes, and rattlesnakes. That the Motley mutation would appear in Argentines, Colombians, and Central American Boas is not a huge leap.

There is no difference between albinos or any other recessive mutation coming from a wcwb het female and being the start of a lineage of albinos in captivity and the "Zero TM" animal.

If an albino and hypo snake from the original Leopard population were to be found you could make designer sunglow Leopards, which theoretically could be found in the wild. They would be no different from your "Zero Anery" TM.

Captive breeding today of morphs from distinct populations of course are ideal as would be all locality matching where possible. But the technology today certainly is more than capable of distinguishing animals that are a result of two different species being the parents.

Here is a timely article for your discussion

http://news.yahoo.com/extinct-galapagos-tortoise-reappears-173106567.html

A sample of one litter of albino boas being born is a single data point. Testing statistical significance in terms of the viability of the albino or any other mutation would require more than a single data point.

I Luv it !

I Luv seeing facetious as well as scientifically based answers all in one thread.

All provoked as a response to one closed-minded, intolerant individual !

. . . Lar M
closed-minded

-----
Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

I think I should get a zero candy bar , because I believe hermey only responded to me !!! LOL

about Hermy's "Zero" trademark, but the US isn't a signatory party to the treaty recognizing pan-European trademarks, so we can legally call anything we want a "zero", including Hermy!

Mark

if their pure then you wont mind posting their pedigree. i believe you when you say their pure but there weren't that many wc longicauda brought in. so which animals do they trace back to? I know all of my longicauda back to the wild caught animals which if 6 generations ago.

That’s just too funny! All that typing and the only outcome is confirmation of our original conclusion: You’re a complete hypocrite! LOL

Btw, did you know that in America “zero” is derogatory slang for an insignificant person? So even if your snakes aren’t “zeros”, the term is not completely wasted on you…

Have a great life!

Mark

You are a gem Mark Pollard.
-----
Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site