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It seems that this once common and popular thayeri morph is almost extinct in the hobby.
Does anyone know of any breeders working with them in the nation?
If so, could you post it here or email me?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
Yeah, I also find it odd that they have virtually disappeared from the hobby like so many other things that used to be available. I wonder whatever happened to the melanistics that Mark Bell worked with and sold back in 2004, etc...
This one was bought for $40 bucks back in 2004. I bet you wouldn't hesitate to give a mere $40 for this one now, huh??..
~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing" 
>>Yeah, I also find it odd that they have virtually disappeared from the hobby like so many other things that used to be available. I wonder whatever happened to the melanistics that Mark Bell worked with and sold back in 2004, etc...
>>
>>This one was bought for $40 bucks back in 2004. I bet you wouldn't hesitate to give a mere $40 for this one now, huh??..
I would give you $40 for as many as you had right now....LOL
They are at least $250 snakes now due to their recent rarity....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
"They are at least $250 snakes now due to their recent rarity..."
Yep, it is very similar to L.t.abnorma being available many years ago. I bought an authentic pair back in the mid 90's for just $125 bucks. But they disappeared for very different reasons is all. The abnorma disappeared because VERY FEW people know the real differences between hodurensis, polyzona, abnorma, stuarti and oligozona, as well as their natural ranges and they all got blended into the already very mixed up hobby Hondo "melting pot" stew that we have today. Heck,it's been that way for well over three decades with the various Latin milks.
Do you think the melanistic thayeri thing is because in more recent years far more people were striving for insane oranges, and every other kind of thayeri phenotype, and the melanistics just "seemed" like another typical "black snake" to the casual hobbyists?. This is very likely don't you think?, or maybe at least part of the reason for it.
~Doug
~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
>> Do you think the melanistic thayeri thing is because in more recent years far more people were striving for insane oranges, and every other kind of thayeri phenotype, and the melanistics just "seemed" like another typical "black snake" to the casual hobbyists?. This is very likely don't you think?, or maybe at least part of the reason for it.
Definitely!.....The same can be said for MSP thayeri. They don't get the attention that leonis phase thayeri get because they aren't as variable and there are tons of tri colored snakes one can get for a few bucks....
But there has been a swing towards the retro thayeri phenotypes (Earth tones) over the last 5 or so years......and I have had a waiting list that I could not fill over the last two years for melanistics....
Hopefully they will make a comeback.....But I do enjoy a nice line bred bright yellow or orange thayeri about as much as I do the naturally occurring phenotypes......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
Yeah, I would have to also agree with all that as well.
The colubrid hobby is all about cycles, waves, and full-circle come-arounds. We have both seen countless things come and go. Many things are not missed until they are totally gone or very scarcely available.
~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
Hi John...I am here with my black thayeris!
But you are right, not only in the US the melanistic are rare...they are also not frequently breeded in europe!
I don`t know the reason for the rare reproduction...but to me this is the nicest "natural"variation of the thayeri!
Hope to get some blackies this season...and the greeris have become activ this days...hehehe
and keep me updated on your greeris!
yours
Michael
>>Hi John...I am here with my black thayeris!
>>
>>But you are right, not only in the US the melanistic are rare...they are also not frequently breeded in europe!
>>I don`t know the reason for the rare reproduction...but to me this is the nicest "natural"variation of the thayeri!
>>
>>Hope to get some blackies this season...and the greeris have become activ this days...hehehe
>>
>>and keep me updated on your greeris!
I will let you know how the greeri are doing all the way up to when they start producing super hypos....LOL
And I hope you produce lots of black thayeri this year....Maybe we'll do another shipment over the pond from here to there and there to here.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
I will be, once you make my pair! Awesome snakes man!
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
>>I will be, once you make my pair! Awesome snakes man!
Thanks Gerard...I hope the ones I have produce some melanistics....I had bad luck with them last year as well as ruthveni......But everything else did well......Maybe the adjustments I made and plan will do some good.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
Melanistic red ear I found. It didn't make it and was the only true melanistc I have seen.
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
That's nice. Did you hatch that?
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>>That's nice. Did you hatch that?
>>-----
>>
>>
I think he posted he didn't make it but I wonder if he found it in the wild or if someone else produced it in captivity.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
Sometimes I need to slow down and read things. lol
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I found that in a pet shop that had a tank full of normals. It was awesome, just never took off.
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
That's too bad.
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I know, I copy dnt believe it. It's always the cool stuff...
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
Man, That HAS to be an older pic. Either that or your hand is growing at a phenomenal rate!..LOL!!..
~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
Those are some cute little critters!. Love the little "belly button" scar on the greener one there..LOL!
The way I see it, the term "melanistic" is often seen used interchangeably with the term "hypermelanistic". Generally I think the term "melanistic" is probably more accurately applied to animals that are totally black, and "hypermelanistic" is probably best for describing animals that still display some form of patterns and other colors, even if they are fairly obscured by the melanin (or not), as long as there is an "over-abundance" of melanin. That little dude there still displays the normal red ear markings and the same "basic" amount of yellow the other one does with the exception of very heavy melanin pigment in the greener coloration.
As weird as it seems, there are no actual green or blue pigments producing by reptiles. Instead, it is the way a human eye perceives these colors when the varying wave lengths of light are reflected back to the eye and processed.
Iridophores, unlike other types of chromatophores (pigment cells), do not produce actual pigments per se. Instead they contain deposits of purines. These deposits are crystalline in nature and reflect varying amounts of light and in different wave lengths. The way the light is reflected is determined by the type of purines and the way the crystals are oriented. These structures control the appearance and reflection of green, blue and red light to our eyes. The primary forms of purines in reptiles are guanine, hypoxanthine, and adenine.
Iridophores appear to be most concentrated in areas lacking melanophores (i.e. xanthophores) and may play a role in blocking harmful UV radiation contained in sunlight.
From what I have researched, these cristalline structures that would pre-dominantly be lying in different layers and in slightly different shapes and angles around the yellow pigment cells(xanthophores), etc... In combination with varying degrees of melanin would be displayed as different shades of greens and blues. Iguanas and Green Tree Pythons would be a great example of this, and the very blue form of certain gravid chondros would as well.
Not trying to be "Mr. Science wizard" here, but this sh!* is pretty interesting to me. After all, this crazy stuff just just happen by magic, there is a natural reason for every single thing we see in these awesome reptiles we mess with every single day..LOL!
later, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
That's why if I want to know, I just call you.....Lol!
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
Hey John,
Shores has some and I've been waiting at the top of his list for a couple years. I don't think he had good luck last season. I'm hoping between him and you I'll get some in the next year or two.
Randy W.
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Randy Whittington
I actually meant to send that to you privatly by clicking on your name but wasn't thinking at the time. Sorry D.
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Randy Whittington
>>I actually meant to send that to you privately by clicking on your name but wasn't thinking at the time. Sorry D.
Man...I know Don well and I didn't even know that....
I'll have to email him and see if he still has a melanistic pair to breed this year.......
Thanks Randy....
I have Shannon's 2.1 and 1.1 hets....Yep...I said hets as I believe it is a simple recessive trait.....There is only one breeder in the nation that I know of that has declared it not to be recessive but rather polymorphic like MSP and Leonis............and I have no proof of that....lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
I wonder about the polymorphic thing. I know someone that bred melanistic to melanistic and said they got all melanistics. Have you or Shannon ever gotten a decent size clutch from melanistic parents and if so what hatched out? All melanistics?
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Randy Whittington
>>I wonder about the polymorphic thing. I know someone that bred melanistic to melanistic and said they got all melanistics. Have you or Shannon ever gotten a decent size clutch from melanistic parents and if so what hatched out? All melanistics?
No we haven't....honestly I've never produced single melanistic thayeri....but many have produced all melanistic offspring from melanistic parents.....Bob Hansen did last year........
Frank Retes claims it is a simple recessive trait..........and I believe it is......not only because FR said so but because there is only one well known breeder that claims it is a polymorphic random occurrence........
I produced some possible het melanistic thayeri from a "het" male bred to a normal female last year....... A few offspring have black ventrals and lots of melanin........
I am going to breed 2.1 Lemke line melanistics and 1.1 het melanistics this year......I often wonder if there are multiple lines though....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
I think it is simple recessive myself. I've known people to breed melanistic to het and get both. I also think Lance Benton has some.
>>I think it is simple recessive myself. I've known people to breed melanistic to het and get both. I also think Lance Benton has some.
Yeah...Lance got those melanistics from Larry Briggs and produced a couple a few years back.....
I haven't heard from Lance in a year...
We are going to breed het to het this year and see if some melanistics hatch out.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
Man, I hope it is. That is a cool ass morph for sure.
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
When my late friend Ty Kubin showed me his melanistic Thayeri back in around 1994, there was dead silence after he pulled out the box and showed me. At that time, I had never even heard of such a thing. I was astounded that melanistic Thayeri even existed.
It was really a cool snake!!
I wish I had an idea more of where he received his from.
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Genesis 1:1
>>When my late friend Ty Kubin showed me his melanistic Thayeri back in around 1994, there was dead silence after he pulled out the box and showed me. At that time, I had never even heard of such a thing. I was astounded that melanistic Thayeri even existed.
>>
>>It was really a cool snake!!
>>
>>I wish I had an idea more of where he received his from.
>>-----
>>Genesis 1:1
Most, if not all can be traced back to Lemke, Ruiz or Veverka.........or the wild confiscated Laredo line John Cherry had........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
>>Most, if not all can be traced back to Lemke, Ruiz or Veverka.........or the wild confiscated Laredo line John Cherry had........
Oh...I almost forgot.....and Frank Retes.....Frank was the one who actually found the first melanistics in Mexico.
I wonder if Frank can share the locale as it slips my mind right now.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
John knows this, but for anyone else...there is zero doubt but that this is a wholly recessive condition, or phrased another way...there is zero evidence in support of anything other than melanism being a homozygous recessive condition. Steve Osborne published a note on this way back in 1982 (http://sierraherps.com/pdf/Osborne1983.pdf).
Cheers,
Bob
>>John knows this, but for anyone else...there is zero doubt but that this is a wholly recessive condition, or phrased another way...there is zero evidence in support of anything other than melanism being a homozygous recessive condition. Steve Osborne published a note on this way back in 1982
Thanks for chiming in Bob!
Actually I forgot about Steves note......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
Thanks for posting those pics Bob. I hope to see some melanistics piping at my place some time not too far down the road.
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Randy Whittington
Good luck with your animals! It's a great joy to see all black snouts poking out of eggs. Here's an adult female photographed in natural light.
Cheers,
Bob
SierraHerps.com
That is awesome! Those are my new favorite.
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
John,
I have a pair, but the male is a few years older than the female, so I have to wait a while longer to pair them up. I am still waiting on the female from you to make a 1.2 trio, each from a different strong lineage.
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God Bless Evolution.
>>John,
>>
>>I have a pair, but the male is a few years older than the female, so I have to wait a while longer to pair them up. I am still waiting on the female from you to make a 1.2 trio, each from a different strong lineage.
I hope we get a good fertile clutch from the Lemke line animals this year too so you can get your female.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
I bought a pair-(first snakes I have bought in years) last year. They were fresh hatchlings but I dropped $150 for the pair.
jeff teel
>>I bought a pair-(first snakes I have bought in years) last year. They were fresh hatchlings but I dropped $150 for the pair.
>>jeff teel
That's a rather low price....any lineage information on them Jeff?
Good to see there are others out there still with a few.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
I don't know of any. Very nice snake though!
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