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just wondering if anyone has everyone any unusual breeding between different species of milks?

"just wondering if anyone has everyone any unusual breeding between different species of milks?"

Not really sure what that even meant to be quite honest.

Scott Ballard will want to skin you alive if you are asking what I think you are asking after you just acquired one of his very nice genuinely authentic L.t.andesiana. If he even had the slightest notion a potential buyer of any of his fine authentic animals would even ask the question of showing any interest whatsoever of crossing two different miksnake subspecies, he would never, EVER sell one to the person,......I guarantee it.

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I'm trying to picture the look on Scott's face... the thoughts in his head when he reads that one... I don't know him nearly as well as you do but... none of the pictures in my head, of him in that scenario, are pretty ones.

"I'm trying to picture the look on Scott's face... the thoughts in his head when he reads that one... I don't know him nearly as well as you do but... none of the pictures in my head, of him in that scenario, are pretty ones"

Yeah Gerry,..The picture you have in your head is very much "spot-on". I know for an absolute fact that sort of thing is Scott's absolute BIGGEST nightmare regarding this hobby. I am in that very same boat, and share the very same views that he and some other's do. That is one HUGE reason I have so much respect and admiration for the guy. There are very few people on this planet that are as hell-bent on species/subspecies authenticity and taxonomy science as Scott, and I admire and advocate the hell out of it myself. You would love some of the stuff we have discussed over the phone too..LOL!!.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

wow.. y'all take everything extreme. i don't ever or want to breed snakes. i have too many other priorities. i was only asking because i thought i saw someone who mixed a nelson and sinaloan and were selling them. i was just curious as I'm kinda new to this. that is all. nothing more.

i also saw some black milk/black king mix for sell on here. thats why i was asking. i didn't know if that was common or not. I'm not breeding my baby with anything other than her own kind if ever. so give me a break. i understand how y'all could get annoyed with ppl crossing them. but i don't plan on it. not my intentions.

It's not that we take everything extreme... Doug and I are after all the only ones that replied to you... there are a few here that do cross breed snakes.

Doug and I have both recently made purchases from Scott of what are rare milks in the hobby. We get them from Scott because not only does he seems to be the only guy in the country with what are known to be 100% pure examples of certain ssp's but because of his reputation as well... no BS kinda guy, goes well out of his way to provide all the details you could want... as Doug points out Scott is a big advocate of maintaining that ssp's purity... so Doug and I were both a little surprised when a new guy makes his first post of a nice little Andean he obtained from Scott and then makes the topic of his second post the one thing he(Scott)dislikes most... anyway, long story short, I think Doug and I just had one of those involuntary shudders/knee jerk reactions at the idea of a snake Scott produced potentially being used in a cross/hybrid project. Glad to hear it was just an idle question.

So to answer your question... yes you have seen ads for a black milk and black king cross... can't even pretend to understand the reasoning behind that one, since that ad has been around for some time I'm guessing no one else can understand it either... and yes there are lots of nelsons and sinaloan crosses out there, so many in fact that a pure specimen of either snake is the more unusual. Many interesting posts concerning Nelsons and Sinaloans have been made here... if you stick around I'm sure the subject will come up again.

Hope you stick around to offer some updated photos of your Andean... one of those snakes I may someday get from Scott... right after I pick up mates for the female abnorma and hondo I just got from him last year... but probably after I get Sinoloans... probably after the arcifera as well... perhaps after revisiting polyzonas also because the two I picked up from him are just "B!TCHIN"... hmmm, so many things Scott has that I want... sure there must be a twelve step program out there to cure me.

Gerry

Excellent post Gerry, and I totally concur with all of it..

"Nlack milk x Black king" ....in freakin' DEED!!...HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Does this same dude have ads for square wheels??...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

.....D'HO!!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

thanks, just wanted to clarify.... i will keep everyone posted on her growth!!! thanks

A 12-step program....? What would life BE without snakes? *chills and shivers down spine*

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Jerry Kruse

UPDATED!
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

C'mon man!, you mean those coral snakes you got there wouldn't be nicer with some awesome "Imperial" ingredients thrown in to snazz them up a bit more?...HAHAHA!!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Oh good Lord don't get me started Doug...been away from the forums for quite a while and thus more productive with my time.....but I see you and a few oters start and I get the itch and it's SO hard not to scratch it.

Speaking of coral, I encountered an incredible adult coral (a.k.a. "corallilo falso" to the locals) while down in Costa Rica recently while spending the holiday season there. It was a fresh DOR and I had JUST missed it by about 5 minutes according to a local croc wrangler who was driving behind the guy who hit it. Amazing trip: played with some vine snakes, a boa, lotsa crocs, some poison dart frogs, green and rock iguanas, tons of different birds and insects (of which the leaf cutter ants were very cool and the bullet ants were just bad-a$$), and some other lizards such as brown basilisks, anoles, and and soem form of flying lizard tat I just couldn't manage a photo of while zip-lining in the Costa Rican canopy.

Otherwise, "how you dooin'"??
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Jerry Kruse

UPDATED!
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Wow!,......that's one heck of a trip dude!....I KNOW you got a photo of the DOR "corallilo falso" for good ol' Mr. Mong and the others to gander upon, not to mention many of the other incredible photos you most definitely took there!!!(hint-hint)...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yessir, I do have over 800 photos to go through, which I believe my wife has done already. I took about 6 shots of the coral both on and off the dirt road. man, it was a real beauty. I actually made a mistake....the "corallilo falso" is what is referred to when talking about the harmless Costa Rican MILKSNAKE, of which I saw none and wouldn't even know where to begin looking quite honestly. The corals are simply referred to as "corallilos".....sorry for the confusion.

What i DO need to follow-up on is my connection in Cozumel that i was telling Shannon about earlier last year after my 6th trip to MX. I've come to know a Cozumel rancher who tells me he sees "tricolored snakes" at night, but could not tell me if the red touched black or yellow....even after drawing this on paper he wasn't sure but simply states that he and his family avoid these tricolored snakes at all costs. He promised he would take a photo for me the next time he sees one. Moreover, he said he has a family friend in the Yucatan who is described as an "environmentalist that studies snakes" and studies tricolored snakes IN THE YUCATAN.....HMMMMMMM.....

I unfortunately lost mi amigo's contact information up until a couple weeks ago when I found it again just before my departure to Costa Rica....it was in my damn luggage in a side pocket that I'd overlooked emptying last year. We exchanged info on small pieces of paper which was all we had that day. I will be definitely contacting this caballero soon to see what's the scoop. Perhaps he'd lost this gringos info as well -- again, it was a small piece of paper so anything is possible.

I bet you salivated at this story......LOL.
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Jerry Kruse

UPDATED!
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Oh, ,,no confusion here Mr. Kruse, Dougie has been very aware of the couple Latin "False Coral Snakes" (milksnakes) that inhabit Costa Rica and surounding Latin countries for years.........and yes, I did salivate some..LOL!

We talked about the Cozumel thing a while back if you recall. I don't forget too many things regarding Lampropeltis, "J-Dawg"..he-he!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Good deal Adam, and I'm glad to hear that...

Anyway, yes, there are countless people in this hobby that cross things together. I'm glad you will keep the snakes bred to their own subspecies if you eventually do intend to ever breed in the future.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

As of now all milk snakes are considered the same species - so it wouldn't be possible. Breeding a Nelson's to a Sinaloan is crossing SUBspecies. You will find that people on this forum are not fans of hybrids and generally frown upon unnatural crossings of subspecies.

Tim

Third Eye

thanks tim. that was a lot more informative than some ppl.

Hi Adam,.......

Gerry and I (and many others here) really aren't bad folks at all. As a matter of fact, we are a couple of very good people that very much understand all the angles and details of the hobby. It just takes some time to get familiar with the long history of the milksnake hobby and the people involved with it, as well as many of their good sense viewpoints regarding it. If you stick around on this forum (and I certainly hope you do), you will begin to understand this much better and begin to see this for yourself. There is more knowledge and good information here regarding milksnakes than you could ever possibly imagine. Many of us have decades of hands-on experience to share and benefit from. This is actually THE forum to go to if you want to get very experienced opinions and information from, and we all hope you stick around so you can absorb a bunch of it, even though it might have "seemed" like it didn't start so great with your second post..

There are so many different facets of this hobby to understand and appreciate. It just takes some time to get familiar with alot of it, and get to understand some very good viewpoints regarding the hobby is all.

All of us here look forward to seeing you stick around and see how your nice Andean milksnake does too, as well as any others you might acquire in the future.

Here is just one nice L.t.andesiana youngster I had in my collection in the early-mid 90's when they were EXTREMELY rare to see in any private collections.

cheers, ~Doug

Here is a very normal tangerine phase Honduran from many years ago before any morphs became available.

One of the nicest representations of a truly authentic Nelson's milksnake you could ever hope to see in the hobby...

A nice albino (amelanistic) Nelson's milksnake hatchling.....note the much higher and closer together red ring count on the Nelson's milks compared to the Sinaloans, as well as the much thicker outward tapering on the back in the black rings of the Nelson's. The Sinaloan's have much wider red rings and thinner, more vertical black rings than do nelsoni.

Here is a good comparison of what a nice authentic Sinaloan looks like to compare with the above Nelson's milk. This is also a fabulous illustration of why it is so important to many folks for keeping the milksnake subspecies genuinely authentic, regardless of being a morph or normal example. There are now countless crossed intergrades of these two subspecies in the hobby now, and it is much more difficult to locate true specimens of either now. This is not only due to them looking very similar

here is a normal recessive gene carrier Hondo of the very first color morph offered to the hobby which was the "anerythristic" mutation that lacks redand yellow pigments....

And here is an example of the anerythristic morph I acquired from BHB(Brian Barczyk) who was the first person to introduce them.........hatchlings of this first morph went for $800-900 each back then..LOL!

This is a VERY rare example of a Pacific Central American milksnake (L.t.oligozona) I owned many years ago. You can plainly see why this subspecies is typically mistaken for an everyday Honduran. This is precisely why there are virtually NO authentic examples of these in this hobby today.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Good post, Doug. I'm jumping in here a bit late, but I agree with everything you, Gerry, and Tim have said.

These animals from Salina Cruz, Oaxaca are as close as we have to oligozona right now, and they aren't very commonly available.

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-Cole

That is absolutely correct Cole!......the Salina Cruz locale specimens we have in the hobby today (such as your nice example there) are located right where the natural ranges of L.t.stuarti and L.t.oligozona ranges overlap on the Pacific slope in Oaxaca, Mexico. And you can very clearly see the combined characteristics of the two being displayed in that animal. As you know, that would be yet another type that is also in the "hobby Hondo" stew pot to some degree. But thanks to the efforts of a few dedicated folks we both know, they can be kept in true locality-specific form.

I'm glad you popped into this thread to Cole, as you are definitely one of the other very knowledgeable, experienced folks Gerry, Tim and I were referring to earlier..

Great photo of a sweet specimen dude!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

........Jeff Hardwick for bringing those in and making them available to the hobby!...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I leave the house this morning only to return to find I'm in need of defense as "a nice guy"... I mean I'm sitting here listening to Dolores O'Riordan of The Cranberries belting out "When You're Gone"... how much nicer can a guy get?

Adam... if anything I said offended I apologize... no offense was meant I assure you... as I said it was a knee jerk reaction to the very idea of a snake produced by one of the biggest(if not the biggest) advocates of CA milk snake purity being used in such a manner... kinda leaves you with an... unclean feeling... and anyway, from what I can tell, everybody here seems to have pure and hybrid animals in their collections.

Being relatively new here myself I can also assure you that by and large everybody here gets along... everybody here has great information, observations and experiences to pass along... stick around... I wanna see how long you're satisfied with just one snake!

Gerry

Meant to include a link... you can just hear she's putting her all into her music
Link

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

but make it understood I have no intention of playing the part of Ned Beattty!

Pat Benatar? Chrissie Hyndes just laughs in your face!

Gerry

P.S. Please do not look up The Pretenders original video for "2000 Miles" or I will have to concede anything and everything by Miss Benatar as the best... 2000 Miles, talk about monumental mistakes
Link

" I have no intention of playing the part of Ned Beatty!"

That is DEFINITELY good to know Gerry..

I think Ned Beatty represented the snake hobby and how all the crosses have affected (infected) it over the years..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

As usual, very well said my friend. I couldn't agree more with yours, Gerry's, Tim's and old Colester's thoughts....
Hope all is well.

Nathan

Thanks Nathan,......and I'm glad to see another good guy such as yourself pop in and add his 2 cents on the issue.

Very cool find there too man. I can't really make them out too well from this distance, but are those annulata from Texas by any chance?

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

better not be from this year already, Nate. We're sitting at -11F right now.
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-Cole