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Anyone know of anyone who still has these untainted by other lines? It seems these are nearly impossible to find, unless they have been mixed in with other morphs? It would be a shame to loose this precious line.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra
My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com
Jorge, I asked this around a couple months ago and came up empty. It is a cool morph that I hope someone still has just as it's supposed to be.
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
Jorge
I seriously doubt it. I thought I was getting a strictly NE Axanthic and then the breeder told me other mutations popped out as well. Wasnt the breeders fault he got them from someone else(who shall remain unamed) and wasnt told of the extra recessive genes..shocker I know lol.
Lu
I sold a ton of the New Englans axanthics for many years and i have no idea what happened to all the babies i sold. I never see or heard of any of theose people selling them that I sold to on the classifieds or anywhere.
The New England is a line trait that started with some guys living in the New england states (hence New England name)and one of them was Bob Fengya. Who is who i got them from.
As soon as you cross out a New England THEY ARE NO LONGER new Englands. You can just say they have New England in them. But most people don't understand that and sell them as NE's misleading others. I know of one large dealer that was selling axantics as New Englands for years at 1/3 the price. But the stock he got actually originally came from me and they were NE x Lemke which i sold to someone and they resold to that person who was marketing them as NE's. i spoke to him one year and he continued to mark them as New Englands So buyer beare of what is out thee..
So, true New Englans are hard to find. I currently only have one and it is a female. If i could find a male i would defeinetly jump on it.
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You could make some hets. It sucks when people don't keep stuff the way it's supposed to be....huh? Just send her to me, I will put her with my WC male........
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
if you had a male NE I would send her to you and split the babies. But the only way I trust if it is a pure NE is if it traces back to me. ...or Bob fengya. but I produced waaay more than him. even though they came from him, over the years I kept the line going and popularized them.
I always sold them for $125. Each. and I wish I had kept that line going as I always sold out. guess I got bored and focussed on the new PB morphs nd T-negative morphs so much I lost interest. now I wish I had held onto the line.
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It would be nice if stuff didn't get mixed up just because someone is bored. It doesn't do anything good for the rest of us. Why can't you breed it to a WC animal and make hets? That would keep it pure..........
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
I think there is some misunderstanding as to what makes a pre New England. I bred the NE to Lemke 20 years ago and they all came out axanthic. The axanthic in NE is nothing different than any other axanthic. it is the phenotype and the fact it comes from stock originall collected from the old canal area which is now developed. So this line is gone unless resureccted from a pure NE animal. Which is what i am looking for a male to breed to this female. It is not to late yet to find one.
"can't you breed it to a WC animal and make hets? That would keep it pure.........."
I have done that many times in the last 20 years.And no, it won't make them pure NE's IMO.
What makes a new England is the original phenotype from the old canal loal. The axanthic trait is just like any other.
Oh and i have bred the New Egland into pure Love hypos I got in '94 to creat Ghost and I bred it to pure s. Florida original stock PB to create PB axanthic Ghost .
from those triple het breeding i have axanthics. but they are NOT New England axanthics.
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So it's not the morph, it's the blood line? That's ironic............
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
I found someone I trust who has an umtainted pair, so I just have to wait for babies.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra
My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com
Put me down for a pair.
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
Who is it?
A lot of people say they have New Engalnds. but unless it can be traced to when and where they got the stock i would not trust it.
i produced most of the new Englands out there in the last 10-15years. i stuck with the project for a long time.
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It's some one I trust!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra
My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com
Trust means nothing. KNOWLEDGE.
Later on, don't say i told you so.
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Trust is everything! What good is knowledge from a source that is untrustworthy?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra
My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com
Very good point there Jorge.
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Genesis 1:1
So, because someone say they know everything they are right? I think you have been listening to the wrong people. That sucks......
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
I don't understand what you mean by that gerard. Maybe I did not explain myself well enough. Or people just don't understand the history of the nw englands.
Since i produced 99% of all the new England axanthic out there. i would know who is who and if they have the real deal.
So SOOO many people are selling fake NE's.
Even when I was elling tons of Sulfur lavenders people were ripping thatr name off to sell animals that were not Sulfurs. as eveidenced by this pic at the daytona show back in 2006.
I took a pic of these high priced normal lavender Floridas with a price tag of a Sulfur. Looks at the price of the lavenders on this table. Back then real Sulfur lavs fetched a good price. problem is people trusted this well known breeder. But they knew nothing of their history or where /who started the line.
Actually the breeder who had these for sale on his table is probably one you would all consider very trustworthy. You would probably beleive anything he said about me or anyone else. What ya'll don't realize is that some people have a history and motives that you have no clue about.
[img]http://www.fototime.com/%7BF7ABB82A-8A48-4D78-B55A-F27EC8644F31%7D/sspict/640/exp=f&modt=39877.545103287&ssdyn=1/P1018610.JPG
So if Jorge or whover thinks they have New Englands they better check with me. Since i am the one who pretty much popularized them and was producing them.
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I understand that part. I was talking about your don't listen to trust, listen to knowledge comment. That's stupid!
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
Anyone can learn knowledge, but trust has to be earned, lol. That's what he'll never understand!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra
My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com
I knew breeders in FL that were cranking out butt-loads of New England axanthics 5-6 years ago. I haven't thought to ask about them any time more recently than that. Maybe that's over with now, but they were producing a lot of them, and most were wholesaled off.
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www.brooksi.com
>>So if Jorge or whover thinks they have New Englands they better check with me. Since i am the one who pretty much popularized them and was producing them.
>>
>>www.Bluerosy.com
Ha ha this is pure gold! You da man!
I don't think they are, I know they are, lol!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra
My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com
"So if Jorge or whover thinks they have New Englands they better check with me"
Like he knows where every single one of these snakes went over all these years and exactly what they all were ever bred with..HAHA!!
........priceless!
Regardless of all that nonsense, I'm certain your source does INDEED have exactly what he says he does. I also know this for an absolute FACT!..
See, some people DO keep great records and are knowledgeable to know exactly what they have, and know genetics like the back of their hand.
Anyway, you are SURE to score some sweet N.E. axanthics from him......guaranteed.
~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
Yeah, I hope there are still some around so the line can be saved. It seems that pursuit of money by combining morphs may have done them in? I hope not!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra
My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com
I hope not either. Those are very cool!!!
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Genesis 1:1
"he got them from someone else(who shall remain unamed) and wasnt told of the extra recessive genes..shocker I know lol."
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
This pair was produced in 2007, the last year that Rainer produced PURE New Englands. Male is almost 6 feet and the female is 4.5. They come out of cooling this weekend so I am really excited to get some babies!
Pictured is the male, the female was in shed when I took these pics. The female is much less speckled out, but she is an insane shade of purple-blue.
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Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.
www.captiveborninvestments.net
Jeremy@captiveborninvestments.net
941-323-4850
Forgot to mention that the heads on these things are SMALL, the male is one of my largest FL Kings, yet he has one of the smallest heads. It shows just how different the locality was that these came out of. Unlike normal FL Kings with bulky elongated heads, all of my original stock PBs and these pure NE Axanthics have teeny heads in comparison.
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Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.
www.captiveborninvestments.net
Jeremy@captiveborninvestments.net
941-323-4850
Dang jeremy,
I forgot you had those. For some reason I thought you sold them. But i am glad you held onto them!!
now we can keep this line going! Put me down for a male!
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BTW ..and I know you already know this jeremy.
.. But it is the males that turn out so awesome! Wish there were some pure NEw England female hets still around. That is how i produced most of my axanthics was from a male ax to a female het from bob Fengya. Then over the years i kept holding onto the def het females to breed back to the males.
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i thought you said you couldn't outbreed to produce hets AND keep the trait true lol...
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odelay odelay odelay hee hoooo...
heeeeya huhhhh!
~Back in the saddle (Aerosmith)
Dave,
The original New England axanthic i got back in '92 came from bob Fengya. I purchsed a male axanthic and three female def hets. that is where the hets came from. From each other.
Bob started the line from wildcaught stock in the old canal area.
He had some cool stories written in small book form about the old canal area.. Man I wish i would have kept that. It was a cool read. kinda like Karl Kaufled style.
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So, what would be the problem with making hets with some nice WC animals from the same area?
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
You couldnt prove that they were from the original founding stock. they might make some nice axanthics, but are they New England Axanthics..... NOT FOR SURE
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Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.
www.captiveborninvestments.net
Jeremy@captiveborninvestments.net
941-323-4850
>>So, what would be the problem with making hets with some nice WC animals from the same area?
that is kind of what i was getting to. as it is not a unique axanthic gene but nice llemke animals outbred to a nice line of locale brooksi producing cleaner adults through generations of selective breeding.
i guess anyone really wanting to develop the axanthic gene further could do their own outbreeding for selected traits and market it as such. especially with good lineage documentation.
for example someone could breed the n.e. axanthic to a bone white hypo, breed the hets back into the axanthic line. eventually no one would be able to tell the difference between a bone white axanthic 0.0000125% possible het hypo and a bone white ghost.
i noticed someone compared the nice looking male posted earlier to a ghost. back when i was breeding ghosts and a n.e. axanthic pic came up on this forum, someone asked me what's the difference between the two, and why would they buy a ghost when they could have that for less? can't remember what i said but it was like "d'oh!"
sorry for the jump off the road into the ditch. the n.e. axanthic line is tremendous. i am glad some still exist, i hope the line keeps going.
peace
daveb
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odelay odelay odelay hee hoooo...
heeeeya huhhhh!
~Back in the saddle (Aerosmith)
So the NE line is just llemke animals outcrossed into another brooksi line?
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
It's the same gene, selectively bred for a nicer "classic brooksi" phenotype. Light coloration and reduced pattern.
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www.brooksi.com
Did llemke start his line from pure brooksi or did they come from. The more northern floridana?
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
That should have been one sentence. The iPad messes you up some times.
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
The axanthic morph came from down south of the track. Definitely in the zone. I remember seeing a picture of the original WC axanthic. Wasn't an amazing looking brooksi, but definitely a cut above what you'd find up in North Dade or Clewiston.
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www.brooksi.com
Cool, so even if you end up with one of the "mixed" ones(even though they are the same) they are still from the right spot. That's good to know. I think they are awesome.
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
Yeah. Getting a verified lineage on them could be tough, though.
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www.brooksi.com
Nick, have you ever caught a Brooks on that side before?
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
Sure. Found this one back in November.
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www.brooksi.com
>>So the NE line is just llemke animals outcrossed into another brooksi line?
....yeah, but... they were really NICE looking ones. one in a million, never to be duplicated...ever...by anyone....
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odelay odelay odelay hee hoooo...
heeeeya huhhhh!
~Back in the saddle (Aerosmith)
That pair and my lone pair of Bone Whites from you stock are my prized possessions lol, neither can be replaced if the stocks were to get mixed. Other morphs and combos can be remade, but not those...
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Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.
www.captiveborninvestments.net
Jeremy@captiveborninvestments.net
941-323-4850
There you go......that worked out perfectly!
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
"now we can keep this line going!"
Too many people in this hobby fail to see the importance in maintaining certain types of animals and bloodlines just as they were, and this goes for MANY types of snakes. This is just one very tiny example of it.
I have several special projects going on that will NEVER be altered in any way by anything else. This is what will make them truly rare and sought after.
There were some $75 dollar snakes that could be found up until the early 90's, and shortly afterwards they were all gone forever from ignorance of what they really were and people un-knowingly crossing them. Now, the only known 100% authentic bloodline from it's specific area of origin command $900-$1000 bucks for a hatchling pair.
This is why certain antiques and certain classic fairly common stuff can be so sought after and worth so much later on when they are left totally un-altered over time. I am just glad that there are a few people left that are very aware of this, and not out to change every single thing they constantly touch.
cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
" I am just glad that there are a few people left that are very aware of this, and not out to change every single thing they constantly touch. "
You ain't kidding!
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Genesis 1:1
And you already know that the "money" value I used in my post was only to describe their extreme rarity and unavailability now and that nobody originally ever grasped what they really actually were when they WERE every available in authentic, un-compromised form.
Only a very few people will ever understand what makes the animals I referred to uniquely special anyway. That is why they vanished from the hobby in the first place..LOL!
~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
Yep! It seems like it is about performing actions first, then exhibiting regrets later.
How about taking a few moments and planning ahead at first, to prevent recent scenarios such as this!?
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Genesis 1:1
There were some $75 dollar snakes that could be found up until the early 90's, and shortly afterwards they were all gone forever from ignorance of what they really were and people un-knowingly crossing them. Now, the only known 100% authentic bloodline from it's specific area of origin command $900-$1000 bucks for a hatchling pair.
There you go talking about the greed aspect again. It is not about the money man. It is about the snakes and the love of what you do..
LOLOL!
Did i write that? HA HA HA!
man it's okay to make money doing what you love , right? Otherwise we would all be breeding horses or dogs or BALL PYTHONS!
Actually this is why I love my triple homo PB x Ax X hypos so much. They are all from original s. Florida stock with the hypo coming from the Loves which i purchsed in '93-94. And my New England which was used to breed to the original stock hypo to create Ghosts ..which i bred to the original stock Peanut butter.
most people don't grasp how far i have gone to make pure locale and yet with morphs. I guess i appreciate them more than all my snakes.
And jeremy, yes i like the New Englands. But i like the tiple homos and PB Axanthic ghost. The PB hypos ect. Man those things are the pinnacle grail of South brooksi for me.
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Here is a more moderate size pic
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Good post, my sentiments exactly. I actually don't mind when people change stuff, I just hate when they call it the same, such as using Amel Nelsoni to get the amel gene into the Splotched Sinaloans and then calling them Amel Splotched Sinaloans. They are not Amel Splotched Sinaloans the are Amel Splotched Nelsoni X Sinaloans.
And more recently we have seen Amel Ruthveni X Alterna being called Amel Alterna. You can see the hybrid influence in some of the babies yet he calls them just Amel Alterna and charges a price that is more like what you'd expect pure Alterna to go for than what Ruthveni X Alterna would go for.
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www.hcu-tx.org/
This may be a good example of why crossbreeding does matter. Alot of "brooks" out there seem to have been crossed with floridana, then some people say it doesn't matter because brooks aren't taxonomically accepted. Yet they want to call them brooks because brooks has a certain reputation for greater beauty than floridana. But in crossing them some of the beauty and characteristics of true brooks were lost and/or became less predictable to produce.
The above is an example of what a true brooks looks like because it was kept pure, with the caveat that even with "pure" snakes one has to guard against "captive drift", but it can be done.
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www.hcu-tx.org/
That the prettiest Brooks morph I have seen!
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
If you didn't know better you would think it was a ghost lol
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Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.
www.captiveborninvestments.net
Jeremy@captiveborninvestments.net
941-323-4850
It's nice, that for sure!
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
Very nice Jeremy!!
I have seen some adults in person as well, and they are mind-blowing! In fact, it was almost my first brooks I ever purchased.
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Genesis 1:1
Thanks man, it is my most anticipated project of 2012 as far as FL Kings go because if something happens to one of the adults the project is done.
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Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.
www.captiveborninvestments.net
Jeremy@captiveborninvestments.net
941-323-4850
Not if something goes wrong with the girl. Raine has that other girl. Why don't you have that already?
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Gerard
"Destruction of the empty spaces, is my one and only crime."
I would save yourself at least one pair from what you produce next year.
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Genesis 1:1
I plan on holding on to every female and two males if the ratios work out in my favor. My adult female is big and has good weight so I should easily get two clutches from her
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Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.
www.captiveborninvestments.net
Jeremy@captiveborninvestments.net
941-323-4850
I would save yourself at least one pair from what you produce next year.
Ya jeremy, Don't do what i did and that was sell every single axanthic i got from the line. All i had were some female hets and a coouple males. Then i decided to just keep selling the babies w/o holding any back.
It was a combination of being bored and the fact everyone wanted these. i never NEVER sold a NE axantic for anything but $125. That was their price for over 20 years. And people begged for them. I think you got some of the last ones from me. which are now the adults you have.
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