Reptile & Amphibian Forums

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Agreed! We need a community of animal owners of reptile, dog, cat, or fish alike to come together as a whole in order to apply enough pressure to stop this bite from bleeding. Educating Senate, Congress, or citizens about these animals may be beyond us now but I still believe its imperitive to do so in order to combat the situation correctly. Media, legislature, and many people that dont agree with our ownership of these animals use the aspect of "FEAR" driven into Americans minds that we must rely on Govnt to control this issue but in a economic and financial crunch we are in now, how many govnt run organizations are falling apart, losing money, dissolving?

Living in south florida myself, I hear it to often once you mention the word "python" it directly corrilates to everglades and the burmese issue so its already made its impact. I do agreed this issue needs to be nipped but this Ban will only cause more disruption, chaos, releases, and problems. Most of all its a way to increase revenue no different than "red light cameras"!

John Manser

I hope this video wakes up the Ball python people.
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Richard Ceniceros

BIG BROTHER IS COMING AFTER OUR RIGHTS!!!!! GET OUT AND VOTE THESE ELITISTS OUT OF OFFICE!
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Dave Martin
High End Royal Pythons

Kevin hit the nail on the head! He's right we all need to come together as one so we can put up a strong unified fight!

It cant be just us....we need a stronger frontline....
Click on the business tab here on Kingsnake...everyone on that page has something to loose...if not now soon the will see the ripple affect from this law and the other laws coming.
Anyone know anyone that works for rubbermade or sterilite or other companies that tie into this industry.
They always are looking for 501c donations to make...its investing in their future too.
Travis
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LAIR OF DRAGONS

Kevin, I think we need to figure out a way to get you, the Barkers, Bob Clark, etc etc on national tv outlets like MSNBC, CNN, The Today show, The Late Show, so on and so forth. I think that would be a good way to really reach the masses and not just the reptile community. We really need to figure out a way to get all pet owners on board with us. Thanks for the video.

And just curious, it was mentioned about all the posters on kingsnake and how many might have sent in letters. I've sent in multiple letters over the years to politicians but never a actual reply back from them other than the usual automatically sent crap....... So my question is, have any of you ever heard back and were actually able to talk to them???? Anyone with any success???? Just curious if there actually may be a politician on our side out there. That could potentially be a big help to us if we could find one.

At the moment we don't exactly know what is the best use of energy is. I think our best voice is David Barker for the facts and his delivery. I wish Steve Irwinn was ALIVE!!!

We are trying to get this out.....but it may take a bit of time.

If we do get a chance to show the other side publicly then we have to be careful..... I think we have to be intelligent and thoughtful. At the moment I am bit of a spaz so I don't know our best direction...yet. So, I think we need to collect our thoughts and rally the troops and figure some way to count our numbers...right now it seems the majority of reptile/amphibian keepers are sitting back in the background and just don't care.

Kevin
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"Satan�" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

Well said Kevin, I too wish Steve were still alive. He was such a great ambassador for animals. He's still so greatly missed.

I do agree with you on the Barkers leading the way because of their working with words, but I think that would also be shortchanging you, Bob Clark, Brian from BHB(can't spell his last name to save my life LOL), etc..... And we really do need to be careful how we approach it because if we act like a bunch of maniacs then we won't be taken seriously.

I'm going to keep my eyes and ears open for any way that I can help in the fight. It's so important that we ALL stand together for the fight. Every pet owner NEEDS to have each others back on this......

Kevin…Kevin…Kevin…

Allow me to say that I agree with the idea of bringing together the ENTIRE pet nation on this. Not a novel idea, as it has been thrown around for several years now, but it DOES NEED TO BE DONE to give us the numbers and the voice!

NOT, however, happy at you taking an unfounded pot shot at us (The Python Hunters) especially since by your comments you clearly haven‘t really watched them, and in-light of what else is out there that is so poorly done and damaging that it is mind boggling. I, for one, stand behind everything we have done on the show and everything we do and have done off camera for the industry... including testifying before Congress, working with FWC to stop an all out ban in Florida, discussing the issue face to face with Director Ken Salazar and the Deputy Director, meeting with Bill Nelson’s Chief of Staff, and countless other meetings and pro-industry endeavors we have undertaken…and will continue to work on.

I think you would be hard pressed to find one item that was “hyped” in our show. We hit the facts and we stand by them. All three of us, and our families, lost A LOT of money by doing those first episodes. But we never did it for the money. We did it for the industry and the truth. If your argument is that any publicity is bad PR then you still don’t understand the problem. You can’t sit back and watch the other side put out whatever crap they want and expect it to go away. Someone was going to do it…if not us then somebody else…WITHOUT editing rights and then who knows what they would have put out there and how it would have been twisted. We can’t hide from it and hope it goes away…as we have just seen.

A prime and timely example of this is YOUR comment “Ball pythons are going to be a better invasive…” in THIS VIDEO!!! Really Kevin???!!! That is one of the most inaccurate, false, nescient and damaging statements for the industry I have ever heard. Maybe you should follow your own advice…

I am good with what I have done and continue to do…BUT I COULD PROBABLY DO MORE!

Let me ask you this: WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO HELP AND IS IT PROPORTIONAL TO WHAT YOU HAVE MADE OFF THE REPTILE INDUSTRY OVER THE YEARS?

Feel free to drop me a line sheflick@aol.com or 321-626-0583 for a more in-depth conversation, if you so desire.

Cheers,

Shawn Heflick

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Travis
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LAIR OF DRAGONS

Hi Shawn,

First off, good use of our energy to fight within our limited numbers. I will tell you right off that I have NOT watched all the Python Hunter Episodes. So maybe I missed something..... I did see skilled snake guys looking for snakes in Florida talking about how good these snakes are at doing what they do. It made me uncomfortable to summerize my overall thoughts. If for a moment you think these were "good" and some how clarified the issues and eased people's minds then I missed it. I know the burm issue is overhyped in Florida.

Basing a show on finding the invasive Python does not support this notion. I am not going to pick it apart.... but it brought NATIONAL attention to the issues more than anything else.

Ball Pythons have been named by US Fish and Wildlife..in fact, a long time ago. They have an old report that they clutch as fact about this species being able to burrow under ground to avoid cold temps. They want to basically ban all boids if they get their way.... I do not think any of these species can live beyond South Florida.... their reasoning is thouroughly flawed, big snakes are better invasives than small ones? At some point we could blame almost every pet that we keep as a potential invasive.
What have I done.... compared to what I have gained.... THere is not enough space here for all this and my thoughts. I can tell you 2-3 months ago we filmed with Icon Films/Discovery a Reptile Experts side of the "Super SNake" potential in Florida. The Burmese Python x African Rock Hybrid that "idiots" are claiming could make a Super Invasive. They are finalizing(now) a show on it and I got involved to show the other side of this RIDICULOUS debate. I was very keen to get them to include "our" side/version/facts before finishing. I was able to get them over to FILM OUR THOUGHTS. The conclusion that it does NOT make a Super SNake and that it does make offspring that are less likely to succeed, reach the sizes of their original parents, fertility...
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"Satan�" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

from snipped post above -

fertility issues, if it in fact would make fertility eggs from the breeding..... We worked this point over and over that it would not make a Super Snake......

I can say with certainty that I have helped bring people into this hobby and want to keep a variety of herps by exposing them to my animals and accomplishments. I in fact think I have done A LOT for this industry but we are acting like babies if we have to cry to each other on who did more. (I'll get my wuggy ready if you so choose)

Python Hunters put Burmese on the lips of American Households...even kids. I am SURELY glad that it did at least involve the minds of good snake guys....

I am not saying it was not educational but it is called Python Hunters and it is based in Florida and we now have a ban on this same Species of Python across this ENTIRE Country. I don't quite see the good in that.
If our Government wants to ban our pets then I wish they would try to ban all of them....or all reptiles so they could see our numbers, hear our words,see the facts and see how important these animals are to us. They would finally see beyond the occasional "freak" that keeps a pet python.... for now we are fragmented. Many people don't want to be involved because they don't keep "that" species... Our Govt. wants to treat us like babies and parasitize us..... Sorry if my words were offending but I was voicing my thoughts.... I still do not think it helped us. I make plenty of mistakes.... as do many but I fear what is to come if we don't wake up.

Kevin
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"Satan�" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

Please direct me to the part where you talk about how they are not a good invasive and that Pythons/Boas in general have MANY weaknesses that limit their effectiveness in North America. Like I said, I did not see all of the episodes.

I think a good and very relevant one is :
Boas and Pythons as you know have many limitations in a temperate climate. The fact that Burms have made it in South Florida is basically like a "perfect storm".

Cooler temperatures put all tropical Boids at certain risk to Upper Respiratory, Pneumonia, mouth infections, fungal infections, bacterial, skin lesions and reduce/immobilize their immune system. They face a plethera of problems once they experience these cooler temperate temperatures that can easily kill them.

Once they catch a "cold" they suffer from their greatest inherent weakness.

They have one lung, it is rather primative and the animals does not have a diaphragm that allows it to expectorate mucous and fluids filling its lung. Generally, sick Pythons/Boas can easily die as they suffocate in their own mucous/fluids. They are weak and vulnerable to their environmental conditions. Since reptiles are cold blooded they face a HUGE amount of gram-negative as well as gram-positive organisms that can and will kill them once their immune system is compromised.

Boas and Pythons are at my near bottom for a good invasive....

Kevin
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"Satan�" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

Kevin,

"First off, good use of our energy to fight within our limited numbers." SERIOUSLY?! That's the pot calling the kettle black...you post a video bashing herpers in the industry who have done tons for the cause and then when they reply you try and chastise them for responding. NICE!

And then you post this in a rebuttle..."I can tell you 2-3 months ago we filmed with Icon Films/Discovery a Reptile Experts side of the "Super SNake" potential in Florida. The Burmese Python x African Rock Hybrid that "idiots" are claiming could make a Super Invasive. They are finalizing(now) a show on it and I got involved to show the other side of this RIDICULOUS debate." WHAT? How is that different than what we did. Except we did it in a series so we can get THE WHOLE TRUTH OUT THERE...not just a little blurb. To define your actions look up the word hypocrite....no really...literally...you nailed it!

And as far as NATIONAL coverage...there was already NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL COVERAGE...FOR THE OTHER SIDE! We just leveled the playing field and educated MILLIONS about the truth. We hear from them all over the world and they get it...they learned something...the truth about the situation in the Everglades. My apologies if that fell short for you.

We have never had issues before, but your incoherent, misdirected ramblings in this video have peaked my ire. There is no direction, nothing positive, you contradict yourself, and you tear apart the fabric of the industry. Not really what I expect from someone of your level in the industry...IMHO.

This will be my last post here. I have given you...and anyone else who fancies contacting me...my contact info, so use it or don't, but I can't tell you how disappointed I am in your post and finger pointing.

My energy will now go back into trying to fix this mess related to the ban...

Shawn

No Shawn, I was not attacking EVERYONE.... not even close. There are people that are really trying..... but they are in LOW numbers compared to the number of reptile keepers.

In fact, I think I could have done more...any of us could have.... I am in fact more than a bit confused. My ramblings.....Yes, I did not have a script and I did not present it like that.... it was a start. I won't use my energy to attack you here.... My energy is better used somewhere else. As much as it angers you with what I said it ANGERS ME with what you have said. Trying to mock me as someone that has only taken from the Reptile Industry is a rather interesting approach. I think I may have actually had a hand in helping it grow a wee bit.

I never said I did not like you guys or any of that... you are devaluing anything I said by making personal attacks.... I can tell you I am very well armed to play this game with you but it does nothing for the real issue.

Ok, you are AMAZING and I am an incoherent DWEEB.

Please tell me what I can do...... Seriously, I want EVERYONE in the entire Pet Keeping Hobby to retain their rights as I know you do.... We need to organize and if you have some kind of plan PLEASE let me know.... you don't have to like me, you can hate me in fact but you should at least arm me with a mission.... guide my mis-guided energy.

I do know that you have a wealth of information on this and could teach myself as well as others points that could help!

Back to it..

SATAAN
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"Satan�" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

As per above... sheflick@aol.com or 321-626-0583.

Shawn why not post here and continue the conversation? You both have very good points and I'm sure we can all learn from what each of you has to say.

I shot that video and it is posted on my YouTube channel, I am friends with Kevin but he will be the first to tell you that I don't blindly follow anyone, I question him and pretty much everyone else. Why? Because that is how I learn. I have only a few years in this hobby and you guys have decades. I like hearing from all the more experienced breeders so that I can learn from them. All of them. Not just the one that happens to be within driving distance of me.

I'm not asking to see an argument between you two but an adult conversation between two people that obviously know what they are talking about.

satan will feed you to Scary!!!

Me? Nah, I'll be ok

Although your intentions with the show were only for good.I truly believe it spun the whole situation in the wrong direction, and was only a failed attempt at getting your two seconds of fame. If you want to follow a true wildlife hero look to Steve Irwin the way he brought education of animal species to a whole different level. Not just running around the swamp playing who can catch the biggest snake and thinking its helping the whole of the reptile community.

Kevin I for one stand behind you and Nerd 100% this hobby would not be what it is or where it is if you never had the vision. Keep up the great work and continue to be at the front of our loved hobby.

"Kevin I for one stand behind you and Nerd 100% this hobby would not be what it is or where it is if you never had the vision. Keep up the great work and continue to be at the front of our loved hobby."

If you mean turning a hobby into a greedy pyramid bubble driven faux market, then YES indeed Kevin and NERD contributed in a big way along with several others! WAY TO GO!!! I believe marketing $18,500 ball python morphs as speculative investments at a time when people were using a record amount of cheap credit to pursue the next get rich quick bubble was responsible for much of the attention and "interest" be it good, bad, and ugly.

The "MARKETING" of herps as "INVESTMENTS" attracted attention from .gov types because of the apparent big bucks being tossed around as people HELOC'ed the snot out of their homes and ran up the credit cards in pursuit of getting IN ON TOP of a particular project. For .gov this presents a problem in the form of an underground economy in which the .gov feels it could be left out of the loop in extracting it's share of the loot via taxes and such. The .gov solution for such underground economies is abolition or to bring the "industry" to it's knees to the point herpers will beg for .gov regulation in exchange for the ability to continue working with the most marketable species.... ball pythons.....etc! Right now the .gov is in the drivers seat as it has the herp world in a state that it can go down either road with relative ease.

Herpers have already shown a willingness to throw other species under the bus as long as the most "MARKETABLE" are left alone. This plays into the hands of those that would like to have the herp "industry" highly regulated with a hefty dose of fees and others taxes on the trade in herps.

Most likely the .gov may find it is more profitable to accept sizable donations from animal rights PACs such as HSUS that seek an out right ban on all herps. With and unlimited supply of hollyweird celebs to donate money and publicity, as well as the media propaganda machine such as AP on their side, such groups could generate more money than could be extracted through a regulated herp "industry". The politicians go where the money is, and in our case the herp world is dwarfed by the "professional" lobbiest on the animal nutters side.

It is my BELIEF that the burm situation in FL is a scapegoat to hold the herp world hostage until the .gov make up it's mind as to which direction is most beneficial to the political class. The animal rights groups already had a bead on the herp world as the INVESTMENT bubble in morphs of various species exploded exponentially in the 2000-2006 timeframe. The burm issue was then brought to the fore front around 2007ish only making matters worse but hardly representing the BEGINNING of the current crop of lobbiest and legislative attacks against the lawful keeping and breeding of herps.

The urinary expulsion contest taking place in this thread between the "studied" herper and the "commercial" herper only serves to affirm my BELIEF that in the end the politicians will choose a combination of the path of least resistence and the path that leads to the most money in their campaign coffers. It will take time but I see an eventual ban on keeping many, most, or all herps as inevitable based on past, present, and the future direction the herp community seems to be trudging towards.

These are of course my BELIEFS based on FACTS as they appear and OPINIONS as witnessed from 20 years of keeping all kinds of herps and getting to know many types of herp keepers. The bottom line is it may just be to late to change the course of events to unfold. Not trying to be defeatist, but realistic, especially after having heard of the vast interest from politicians from many other states as Tallahassee claimed victories over herp keepers in the last several years! GAME OVER!

Yep, just call me Bernie.

Do you have an actual name?

Lots of words there, lots of energy....

Your reasoning is interesting.... Sorry Cupcake.... When I came into the hobby and was buying snakes I was buying animals I could barely afford as a hobby investment. I loved them and only hoped I could breed them. I did not have the money to buy the expensive stuff....I worked up to better stuff as I built my collection. I saw "something" in Ball Pythons that caught my interest.... Since I could not afford all the expensive stuff I worked with what I could get.... I did not fall into it by any means. I work very hard to do what I do and reptiles can be an investment no matter if you like it or not . This model existed long before I came in and it will continue but to basically blame me is "BWAHAHAHA"......

SATAN
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"Satan�" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

KEV this is not about you! I just used the absurd quote from the previous poster that included you as an example AMONG OTHERS being the key point. It was an opening statement on a thesis of the current state of herpetoculture and not a personal attack. You must have missed that part, but let me rephrase you are not the SOLE entity I was addressing but you see it how you want. In fact I only used one or two sentences to address the quote of the previous poster, from there I transitioned into a missive on some very real issues that brought the "industry" to where it now stands as a collective.

I think your response has made my point for me, as you do not dispute the nature of how we arrived here but rather revert to rationalization of the "pyramid" model of the morph market and more hyperbole on how YOU achieved YOUR goals as well as tried and true name calling. CUPCAKE...HAHA...clever! This isn't about how YOU achieved YOUR goals, but how the collective herp community as whole has behaved over the last 15 or so years. That behavior in my BELIEF has brought more attention from HSUS and .gov than any other factor including the Burm-Eveglades issue.

You defended yourself and your business from a percieved slight, fair enough since I did reference you specifically and not the OTHERS specifically that are just as much to blame.... and more so in many cases. For that I will appologize to you and the crew at NERD. From here lets keep the discussion to the herp community as a whole since everyone to a certain degree has dirt on their hands, myself included or maybe in my case I have CUPCAKE crumbs on my hands.

As for solutions, well I don't know what options there are other than rethinking how we value our herps and adapting to the changing environment. Bottomline is most "joe/jane six pack" still abhore our animals and have no problem with .gov unconstitutionally stripping us of our right TO LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS which for us is keep herps. All simply because they find them repulsive. No amount of education can overcome such irrational fear. Those with open minds can be swayed, however especially when it comes to snakes there is not a lot of middle ground, generally a love 'em..... hate 'em type deal with far more haters.

The numbers are not on our side amongst the general population....not even close! The herp community will have to adapt.

be a bit upset and don't fully read the point at times...

Ok, regardless how we got here we are here. On the good side we may be able to conjure a better defense for the next attack.

Peer reviewed data that defines the temperature extremes reproductive animals can survive and succeed.

I think this is a STRONG angle.....
Plus, we need to cross over into the worlds of other pet keepers and create a transition.

Yep, name calling. You should see me in public when I pull out "Cupcake Face" and "I know what you are but what am I"... or "you smell".

Thanks - -Kevin
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"Satan�" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

Python Hunters are not the enemy Kevin. I did see the first few episodes. I was SHOCKED at how Shawn and Company were able to get ALL the facts into the programs completely discrediting every false premise that has been pushed by those who mean to do us ALL in. I watched in amazement as every single salient point that USARK and the scientists have been making from the beginning of this process regarding the inaccuracies of the USGS "report". These guys are HEROS in my book as is anyone that takes on the bad guys.

Along the way these guys act more or less like the three stooges. Pushing each other into the water. Laughing at the victim of Burm musk and such. Good clean manly bonding sort of fun that makes the show interesting to watch and entertaining. All the while they sneak in ALL the facts that the public does not otherwise get.

We all have very real enemies out there. The Python hunters are in the same fox hole as USARK and you are right along side us Kevin. Let's all work on the bad guys and not waste energy criticizing each other.

Sincerely,

Jeffy Weffy

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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

AMEN!

Big Pythons sell TV and TV commercials. That's just the way it is. I am about 1000 times happier to see the Python Hunters doing what they do, in a humorous and likable way, educating the public, without any grandstanding and exaggeration.

Contrast that with a program that could be run in place of it with Joe Wasilewski crawling through New York City abandoned Sub Ways looking for hibernating Burms. I'd take the Python guys over that every day.

Jeffy Weffy

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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Maballs and boaphile are right whether Kevin or Shawn agree or not we all need to come together on this. This is not a who got the bigger pecker situation, I know emotions run wild in this type of thing but everyone needs yo hold them in check when dealing with such things. Shawn and Kevin have both done a lot for our hobby and both of them have more at stake than just those of us with a few pets. So if ya'll can lets, put our differences aside, join forces and lets find a way to devistate this ban.

Why has this not been spoken about? We just lost some species, why not have someone we consider a leader in our hobby throw another species under the bus? It was brought up by another poster in this thread but no one has spoken about this again. Or explain themselves? I guess we are just too used to letting people get away with things in our hobby like questionable morphs that can’t be properly explained (genetically).

reasoning they are expanding their horizons.... Why does it have to be big(does not work no matter what the size) for it to become a candidate? Way too many people have the "it does not effect the animals I keep kind of mentality"..... This is SO WRONG....it DOES and it WILL!

Why are yellow anacondas on the list?????

This is incredible..... because they are a sacrifice.... a test...They are tough and can tolerate temp extremes(NON-SENSE)!!

They made it and past because people in numbers did not defend them and they slipped through.

So if Leopard Geckos were on the list would I ignore it even though I have 3 and I am not actively keeping them at the moment?

HELL NO!!! I would do my best to DEFEND the people that do and the PEOPLE that WILL keep them in the future.

I grew up on Burmese..... I enjoyed the magic of raising them and admiring them. This is now lost to the next generations of kids....... We are rapidly changing the landscape of AMERICAN LIFE.

SAD......

Kevin
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"Satan�" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

After watching all the debates throughout this thread...in a way by letting egos, opinions, and "He said, She said" we are playing in the hand of gov like stated earlier. There is only ONE goal to be achieved and that is protecting our rights to own these animals! If we dont come together as gov already has in order to pass such a bill, then we might as well call it quits now because stating smaller animals "will make better invasive" species than larger ones or criticizing "Python Hunters" will only hurt OUR main achievment in defending snakes which are already feared by most.

One thing we all have in common is a love for these animals and the joy they bring whether its their species, various morphs, breeding, etc...it must always be about them. Reminds me too much of when parents fight over things when divorcing when it should always be about the KIDS(in this case reptiles)

Just my thoughts...

Can we please stop finger pointing? Trust me, blaming each other within our own niche is going to hurt more than help. I'm tired of seeing F this and F that and F them all over every forum when I guarantee you, no one in our community would vote to pass this or vote for someone who would. There are people snooping these forums and laughing their ass off, that you can count on!

Just to be clear, my request is not toward anyone in particular but rather EVERYONE! thanks