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OK not sure if I'm spelling this right (this is from my phone and takes forever to look up) but how do you define phenotype? I'm under the impression, for Cal kings, its the color phase like black and white, black and yellow, black and cream and so on. Now what about pattern? Any of those color combos can be anywhere from narrow banded to wide banded and everything in between. They could also be striped, aberrant, and everything in between. Does phenotype also refer to all these patterns? This is just my first set of questions. Thanks
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>>OK not sure if I'm spelling this right (this is from my phone and takes forever to look up) but how do you define phenotype? I'm under the impression, for Cal kings, its the color phase like black and white, black and yellow, black and cream and so on. Now what about pattern? Any of those color combos can be anywhere from narrow banded to wide banded and everything in between. They could also be striped, aberrant, and everything in between. Does phenotype also refer to all these patterns? This is just my first set of questions. Thanks

I define Phenotype as the visual expression of a snake.
California kings like Thayeri have a polymorphic phenotype.
That is...they have very many natural phenotypes.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

The phenotype is typically the physical traits which develop based on the genotype of the animal. It can also include behavior, physiology, etc.

JOSH

>>The phenotype is typically the physical traits which develop based on the genotype of the animal. It can also include behavior, physiology, etc.
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>>JOSH

Your first sentence I agree with 100%....
But...
Behavior & physiology are not phenotypes in my opinion....as they are not visual.......To me, a phenotype is only visual.

again...this is just my opinion......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I've always taken phenotype to be any physical characteristic. I guess I've never really thought about the specifics of it. To me a specific observed behavior could be a phenotype if it was a direct manifestation of that certain gene. I'm not sure how biologists or geneticists define it though. Anyone have a good science text book?

Just so you won't think I'm crazy I've thought up a hypothetical scenario:

A population of timber rattlers is comprised of individual which rattle and individuals which don't rattle, or rarely rattle. As people engage in various activities in the area they encounter a snake rattling up a storm....they immediately kill it. The individuals who don't rattle are often unnoticed and have a much higher chance of reproducing. As time progresses the population begins to have more and more individuals who don't rattle.

Granted this is a hypothetical scenario.
Rattling or not would seem to be an inherited genetic trait resulting in a visually observable characteristic. Phenotype?
What do you think?

>>Just so you won't think I'm crazy I've thought up a hypothetical scenario:
>>
>>A population of timber rattlers is comprised of individual which rattle and individuals which don't rattle, or rarely rattle. As people engage in various activities in the area they encounter a snake rattling up a storm....they immediately kill it. The individuals who don't rattle are often unnoticed and have a much higher chance of reproducing. As time progresses the population begins to have more and more individuals who don't rattle.
>>
>>Granted this is a hypothetical scenario.
>>Rattling or not would seem to be an inherited genetic trait resulting in a visually observable characteristic. Phenotype?
>>What do you think?

Possibly.....Kinda like the thought of line breeding for hardy feeders....Feeding is a visual act, but it isn't expressed all the time....nor is rattling or not rattling....Typically they don't rattle unless threatened...If a tree falls in the forest does anyone hear it?.......It is certainly in their genetic makeup but I still don't think it's a phenotypical expression.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I know exactly what you are saying there, and it is a great example of what also gets inherited in the overal scheme of things.

I think the snakes that have more of a genetic pre-disposition to rattle more(or not) is best described as an actual genotype characteristic. It is part of their overall inherited total genetic makeup (genotype), but really doesn't have anything to do with an actual physical outward body apperance per se (phenotype). With the exception that you could "see" it rattle the tail.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Human blood type is a well accepted example of phenotype. while not outwardly observable it can obviously be observed with a microscope.

Yes, that is very true.

Maybe that is how the "bloodred" cornsnake gene originated?..(sarcasm of course)..

That gene originated from line-breeding wild corns from Hastings, Florida then Bill and Kathy Love later coined the term.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Ok, how bout this one!

Since you brought up corns.....
Star gazer corn snakes.........is star gazing a phenotype?

(c'mon, I'm runnin out of examples LOL)

No, "stargazing" would be part of their overall "genotype" in the sunkissed corns because it is genetic AND inheritable, but not part of an outward appearance of the actual body SURFACE.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

.....Sunkissed corns can be either homozygous or heterozygous for that particular trait too, so it could technically be looked at as a shade of gray depending on how thin someone wants to break the term down I think. If you told someone well-seasoned in corns that your Sunkissed had the stargazing phenotype, they would immediately know exactly what you meant by the term.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I think I know what that is. They sort of point their head strait up toward the sky like 6 inches off the ground for a long time. I had a Cal king that Did that but I only seen it once. How often, how long a period and how high do these Corn snakes do this? That's pretty crazy.
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Well, it is probably very similar in alot of ways to the type of neurological disorder you are talking about, and that is what many boa constrictors display too....looking straight up towards the sky and quite often with their heads tilted all the way back too.

In sunkissed corns, they can do that too, and often seem more or less fine until they get excited or touched, then they loose control of their motor skills and crawl sideways and upside-down, etc...

Charles Pritzel knows more about this in the sunkissed corns than anyone, and is the guy that proved it to be 100% recessively inheritable a while back.

Here is just one very interesting link regarding it from the main source...Charles Pritzel. Jorge is very familiar wuith this too, and he is trying to keep it from ever being displayed in any of his sunkissed line corns.

sunkissed stargazing

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Interesting stuff. My phone won't go to that link right now, but I will try it later. Thanks, Doug.
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Sure thing Ross. I think you will find it to be some very interesting reading. There are tons of different threads and posts on it from many good sources.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Corns...boas…

I thought people might find it interesting that stargazing also occurs in some birds. Gouldian finches seem to be afflicted more often than many others. Some people have blamed various vitamin/nutrient deficiencies. Others believe it's caused by skull injuries. The top of the skull is very thin, and startled finches dart straight up: in a cage or small flight it's not hard to imagine them hitting their heads.

The phenotype is what you actually see in the animals outward appearence. This includes any combination of any and all colors and patterns.

The "genotype" is what genetic characteristics make up the snake's being that are not visible, such as being heterozygous for any particular trait(s), or a genetic predisposition for any number of things that don't have to do with it's direct physical appearance.

i.e....

1. The genetic makeup, as distinguished from the physical appearance, of an organism or a group of organisms.

2. The combination of alleles located on homologous chromosomes that determines a specific characteristic or trait.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Ok thanks guys. What about selectively bred morphs, could those be considered phenotypes as well? For example, high white, mosaic and reverse striped and so on.
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Heck YES!!,...ANY, and I mean ANY-thing you visually see with your eyes regarding the animal is actually the snake's "phenotype", it doesn't matter what type of snake,normal or morph, what color, or pattern the animal has whatsoever. The animals physical appearance is the phenotype. You could just interchangeably use the word "look" as you could "phenotype", it is just a scientific word that we use all the time instead of the animals outward "look".

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>Heck YES!!,...ANY, and I mean ANY-thing you visually see with your eyes regarding the animal is actually the snake's "phenotype", it doesn't matter what type of snake,normal or morph, what color, or pattern the animal has whatsoever. The animals physical appearance is the phenotype. You could just interchangeably use the word "look" as you could "phenotype", it is just a scientific word that we use all the time instead of the animals outward "look".

I agree......Show-Type......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

OK so, can you ever use phenotype as a way to classify certain looks? like could I say these two striped kings belong to the same phenotype? or they are the same phenotype, or is it only an individual thing?
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I think the correct thing to say is that they share phenotypic traits.

absolutely,.....you can say they have, or display the same, or very similar phenotype.

Here is a link to an ACR registered cornsnake I have that you can see how the term is used here as well.

The actual corn is a hypo type "A" phenotype, and it's genotype is "lavender". It simply means that you don't visually "see" the genotype it is heterozygous for (lavender).

ACR registration

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I didn't type it accurately at all there. The genotype is EVERYTHING regarding the animals genetic makeup. The phenotype of course is the genetic characteristic(s) you actually SEE and the animal outwardly displays...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

OK I got that.
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.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"I agree......Show-Type......"

that's right!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

OK cool. Now, can the words phenotype and morph be interchangeable? Like how Hubbs calls a light brown and yellow banded kingsnake a morph.
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>>OK cool. Now, can the words phenotype and morph be interchangeable? Like how Hubbs calls a light brown and yellow banded kingsnake a morph.
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>>
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Yes......
In thayeri Bob Hansen and others (herpetologists) call certain looks morphs.....Tri colored Morph, White morph, orange morphs, yellow morph, etc.......

Visual traits don't all have to be inherited in the Mendelian fashion....Not all are as simple as dominant, co-dominant or recessive......Especially with variable kings like californiae and thayeri.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Another term that is interchangeable is "phase."
We use it alot with Mexicana.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

"Yes......
In thayeri Bob Hansen and others (herpetologists) call certain looks morphs.....Tri colored Morph, White morph, orange morphs, yellow morph, etc.......

Visual traits don't all have to be inherited in the Mendelian fashion....Not all are as simple as dominant, co-dominant or recessive......Especially with variable kings like californiae and thayeri....."

Exactly!,....on the same page once again..

Or a normal wild-type cornsnake with all the countless different "looks" (phenotypes) as well. That is something quite a few people don't understand, and that a so-called "morph" doesn't necessarily mean it is a genetically heritable trait.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks again! Ok I hope I can explain this right. The Long Beach hypermelanistic morph, which seems to be co dom, can have yellow bands or off white bands. Now how would you describe that? That is two morphs being expressed on one snake, but that's not double homozygous, right?
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>>Thanks again! Ok I hope I can explain this right. The Long Beach hypermelanistic morph, which seems to be co dom, can have yellow bands or off white bands. Now how would you describe that? That is two morphs being expressed on one snake, but that's not double homozygous, right?
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Typically the term double homozygous is a term used for a single animal expressing two different recessive morphs at the same time......

Those hypermels are a polymorphic locale.....meaning a specific locale can yield multiple phenotypes.....like alterna locales having both alterna and blairs phenotypes.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Thanks, John. Could the word polymorphic be interchangeable with the word variation?
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>>Thanks, John. Could the word polymorphic be interchangeable with the word variation?

I believe so, but I believe the term variable better describes polymorphic......

Many believe californiae, thayeri and alterna ARE the most variable......There are many variations, phenotypes of each.....They are polymorphic (variable)......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

hahaha Good explanation, John.
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That's right, the prefix "poly" leterally means "many", or more than one (several).......so the term "polymorphic" literally means "many morphs"..

Just like PVC stands for "polyvinyl carbonate" (several types of vinyl)

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks a lot, Doug. You guys taught me something today.
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You are very welcome Ross,..any time!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Not trying to be a smart arse Doug but I think that is Polyvinyl Chloride.

>>Not trying to be a smart arse Doug but I think that is Polyvinyl Chloride.

Both are correct.
One is typically piping - Polyvinyl Chloride
The other is typically sheeting - Polyvinyl Carbonate
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

True, the typical pipe used for plumbing, etc..would be the "chloride" composite as John mentioned.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

thanks guys, I am only familiar with the pipe. I haven't had the oportunity to work with the sheeting.

Yeah, the PVChloride is the rigid more brittle type of white pipe, etc.., and the "carbonate" form is used for many things(including certain pipe) that is much more shock resistent and flexible. The shelving mentioned would tend to crack and break very easily if it was the "chloride" type of polyvinyl.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That's sort of like the way everyone calls something unusual a morph. Isn't the morphology of anything just it's structure and appearence. So even a wild snake is also a morph. It's just the natural morph of any species.

>>That's sort of like the way everyone calls something unusual a morph. Isn't the morphology of anything just it's structure and appearence. So even a wild snake is also a morph. It's just the natural morph of any species.

I agree......there is such thing as a "normal morph."
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Is there a way to describe the two? Like a yellow and brown banded is a "normal" morph, what is a recessive like an albino? A "genetic" morph?
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>>Is there a way to describe the two? Like a yellow and brown banded is a "normal" morph, what is a recessive like an albino? A "genetic" morph?

Specify the genetic mutation it is expressing.
Call it an Albino Morph.

But if speaking bout many different homozygous morphs I would call them all genetic morphs.....

The typical phenotype could be called a normal morph but most call them wild-type, classic or just normal.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I agree,......the more typical normal types/forms would simply be normal/wild-type morphs or forms.

The albino would be a mutant amelanistic(not normal)genetic morph.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks guys, I'm just trying to think of a creative and simple way to differentiate between: 1) a normal wild type non genetic morph 2) a genetic morph found in the wild that naturally occurs and has a range, like a Newport and Central Valley black belly and 3) a genetic morph that most likely does not pop up in nature, only randomly like albino and hypo. So how does this sound for those: 1) a "wild phenotype" 2) a "wild type genetic morph" 3) and a "genetic morph"?
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Now you are making my head hurt Ross..LOL!

Actually, I think all three of those could be looked at several very different ways depending on a number of things and also who you asked. I don't really think there is an absolute one answer with any of the three in my opinion. In every one of those three scenarios I can think of exceptions, and/or or variables.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

hahahahaha I'm feeling the same way trying to make sense of this whole CA kingsnake thing. Anyway, I do have a much better understanding now than when I started yesterday. Thanks
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Sure thing buddy!

Yeah, I'm sure that you have a much better perspective of all this from what we all went over and kicked around.

Rock on with those different natural wild morphs/forms you find and work with. That is some great stuff you have on your site bro.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

.
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Pretty much,.......

It just depends on how far you really want to break the precise definition down to. We as herpetoculturists use the term to describe the many distinctive visual looks a certain type of snake(s) would have so others understand what we mean, or are referring to.

1) One of various distinct forms of an organism or species.

2) [From Greek morph, form, shape.]

3) To transform, or be transformed.

4) (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Biology) Biology any of the different forms of individual found in a polymorphic species
[from Greek morphē shape]

5) The Incredible Hulk "morphed" into one bad-ass dude!..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

.
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>>The "genotype" is what genetic characteristics make up the snake's being that are not visible, such as being heterozygous for any particular trait(s), or a genetic predisposition for any number of things that don't have to do with it's direct physical …

Doug, this is one of those unusual situations where we disagree! I think genotype is the animal's genetic makeup independent of whether or not the traits are visible/homozygous. Wild type, or normal, is part of a genotype even if it's dominant--and visible. I think because phenotypical characteristics are so obvious, we tend to think of genotype as "what else" we know about the snake. But the genotype is all the genetic makeup, including things we don't know are there as well as the ones that are visually evident.

IMHO, a striped amel cal king is genotypically a striped and amel animal along with many other characteristics we may not be able to see.

I agree with you on that. Found this in an old college text and thought it may add to the discussion. Sorry for the underlining.

If even a lost limb or a sunburn becomes part of the phenotype I think we can rest assured a homozygous trait would also be part of the phenotype.

Absolutely!.and I whole-heartedly agree. I corrected the way I accidentally phrased that initially a bit further down in one of my responses because the genotype is indeed the ENTIRE genetic makeup of the snakes being, both seen and unseen.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

All are phenotypes.

I think the herp community deals so much with predictive traits that we sometimes dismiss those traits we do not understand, or we dismiss traits that perhaps only certain individuals possess that are not inherited in the way we understand it.

You have seen from Cal kings that stuff happens all the time with regards to pattern that is not easily predicted. It still is real, it still happens. It came from somewhere. It is phenotype.

I think, lol.

.....it is everything they are genetically comprised of that contributes to their specific individual look. There are literally TRILLIONS of gentic codes on the double chromosome helix, only a few of which do we actually understand anything about or actually "see" the end product of,.. or even most people would ever care or think about..

"Some biologists describe DNA as an "ancient high biotechnology," containing "over a hundred trillion times as much information by volume as our most sophisticated information storage devices"

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks, Mark. That is so true.
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Phenotype is Genotype after natural selection. That is, its any animal you pick up in the field is a natural phenotype. The expressed color and pattern.

The genotype is all the genetic possibilities that animal can produce.

The phenotype is what is produced and survives.

You can google it. Best wishes

Thanks for that, Frank!
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