Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've been keeping and breeding reptiles for approximately 25yrs and lately its just become a real headache. I'm not speaking about the level of work that goes into the maintenance of the species....This is about the quality of people that are involved with it...So many claim to be in it for the love of the animals but in reality it's all about the $$$$$$.

I understand the business nature of this hobby but that is NOT what I'm referencing either.....there are SO MANY scandalous people in this hobby that simply get paid and thats where the service ends. And if you have a problem with something you purchased well thats YOUR PROBLEM...They got your cash and you're out of luck...I just dont believe that is any way to do business.....And there are also way to many kiss-A$$ people that believe simply because someone advertises a lot of stuff they must be one of the "BIG BOYS" that are of the highest caliber.....What a joke...These people need to form their own opinion and stop being SHEEP.

I used to LOVE this hobby more than just about anything and now a lot of the people in it just make me sick.

My Good Guy List: (based on my own experiences)
NERD
Priceless Pythons
FIRE Ball Reptiles
Scott J. Michaels DVM
Renick Reptiles
Robert Seib
Special K
Captive Bred Specialties
BHB

What happened to this hobby?

1.0 Queen Bee
2.0 Killer Bee
1.0 Bumble Bee
1.0 Champagne
1.0 Lesser
1.0 Mojave
1.0 Pastel
1.0 Super Pastel
0.2 Lemon Blast
0.1 Spider
0.1 Het Albino
0.1 Normal (enchi type)
0.7 Normal
0.1 Pewter
TOS Violations removed

Edited on March 7, 2012 at 09:26:06 by PHFaust.

I am really sorry that you had such a bad experience that you would want out of the hobby/business. I personally try to support my customers as much as I can after the sale and help them with whatever support they may need but due mostly to the economy, there is not much of any loyalty in the purchases any longer, instead everyone is just chasing the lowest price posted out of desperation for cash or panic about the future.

I have no idea what your specific issues were with the people who really pissed you off but your good guys list seems like you had plenty of solid people to choose from to keep being happy and satisfied with your purchases. Maybe if you stuck to your own good guy list you would not be so upset but you likely went off the reservation for a "good" deal?

Anyway, please send me your list with pricing as I am always looking to add more ball pythons to my collection. Thanks. E
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Evan Stahl Reptiles
www.evanstahl.com

to actually be so frustrated you get rid of your animals.

I can not imagine what happened but I am sorry to lose anyone for such a reason. We need everyone and their voice in this hobby.

I see under the lines and sadly there are some people in this industry that do bad stuff on a regular basis.

Sometimes we feel this way only to regret rash decisions, in the end it is about the amazing animal that you are holding..... you are responsible for it and you are all that it knows. You have the abilities to make more life in a world that is filled with taking away life.... all from a spare bed room!

Ugghhh.... Kevin
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"Satan�" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

I dont think whatever he ran into was as bad as the decade of fake hets everywhere that we went through. I think that getting burned on buying hets that were not chased more people out of the market than anything else. I am not directing this at you Kevin, just making a statement. The fake het pieds that were sold by a couple scum bags were a major problem that only the eventual drop in pied prices solved.
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Evan Stahl Reptiles
www.evanstahl.com

I wanted to say thank you to all that sent me messages regarding this matter. I wasnt aware that the Bad Guy list was already so well known.

For those that didnt make the Good Guy list please dont take that as any sign of disrespect. It's just a matter of not having done business with you yet.

For those on my Naughty list, well, you earned your position on their based on experiences with me. For those that want specifics on why someone is on the Good/Bad guy list, I'm sorry but I choose not to go into details.

I encourage anyone considering doing business with ANYONE, do the research themselves and form their own opinion. Do not follow anyone (including myself) off a cliff just because you read something. DONT BE SHEEP!

I got burnt buying het pieds back in the day .8 grand and 5a half years later I finely made pieds from a second pair of hets from a different breeder .8 grand would of bought me a male pied back then .I have also been burnt on het albino`s .A pair of hets for albino`s were 2 grand .8 years later I still do not have any albino`s all three were big name breeders .No one would pay me anything back eather .People Suc*

I know of one "good guy" on your list that has sold bogus hets for years and yet he is viewed as a "god" in the ball world....

Scumbags for sure !!!

Like I said, they are on my list based on my personal experiences with them and for nothing else. If you'd like to elaborate feel free to do so.

no im on your side. Im just saying that even the ones that people think are good are also scumbags. very sad

We've all had our own experiences with the industry. Some good, some bad but I wouldnt presume to say that everyone has had the same level of "customer service" from everyone on my list. I'm sure after so many deals there are bound to be a few that didnt go as planned and the end-result was an unhappy customer. Perhaps it has been my unfortunate luck to have so many.

Maybe my standards of customer service are too high or maybe its just that I voice my opinion where so many fall mute. Either way, I believe that this hobby still has some good guys/gals in it but I'm just tired of getting lied to and scammed.

I should note that all of my normals listed were purchased as Het for one thing or another but only ONE turned out to be het (albino) and she was not even purchased as a het albino. This is after two and sometimes three years of breeding that snake. I know the odds with hets producing visuals but c'mon, the odds arent that bad with 2-3 clutches. That being said, I would never purchase another het again if I were by some chance to come back to the hobby. Maybe some day I will but for now I'm going to focus on my other interests that have yet to become a headache.

Edited on March 7, 2012 at 09:29:54 by PHFaust.

with one of the top 5, i bought pied hets a decade or so ago - cost me 7 or 8 grand per. the female threw three large clutches - no visuals. then on the fourth clutch, out of 9 eggs, one pied.

it's insane. i know. and someone here always does the math after two clutches of 8 or 10 eggs dont hatch saying thats like .01% possible or some such thing.

i lived it. i tortured that breeder. then finally 6 or 7 years later, i got ONE pied from that female.

the odds gods owe you nothing. i'm sure lots of idiots scam folks over hets - i'm also sure lots of people dont truly know how bad their own luck can be with real hets.

congrats and so sorry for the long haul....man....

I got hets...from Outback rep ...second and third hand hets..all proved first time out..good guy...I got possible hets from S-Ecto.com...(Ted)...all proved out.....I never missed on a het or a visual try....or a double visual usually...might get all males...might get just one...but always hit...I was lucky....

but like said...the odds Gods owe us nothing....could have screwed me alot more times and nothing we can do...keep trying..and trust who you go to...

I wondered how long the post would last......the origional good guys had bad on it and bad guys had good on it....all who you are, what you bought...timing also....alot of the guys sell second and third hand items...they buy in bulk...and hets...well...they look normal...so they can end up in the wrong box REALLY fast....label...oops...ummm...wrong snake or wrong box???..(sell to pet shop if in doubt of wrong labels...all snakes numbered...)....
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........JY

Was the one pied a male? Did you use the same original het male for all 4 clutches? Did the male het ever produce any other pieds?

One explanation could be that only your female was a het and it took her 4 clutches to produce a parthenogenic fully homozygous male pied offspring (I know Dr. Both reports that sort of parthenogenesis not seen in pythons, YET, but if seen in other snakes why not?).

If you averaged 7 eggs per clutch the odds of going 0 for 28 from het to het are over 1 in 3,000. Certainly you could have just been that unlucky but I wouldn't rule out the male not being a het or maybe most of the first 3 clutches where female clones of the het mom with the documented python type of parthenogenesis?
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Randy Remington
anyone@snakemorphs.com
www.SnakeMorphs.com
FaceBook

Dr. Booth.

Love the sites where you can edit posts.
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Randy Remington
anyone@snakemorphs.com
www.SnakeMorphs.com
FaceBook

sorry for the delay in replying to you randy, i was under a work crush.

yes, the single pied was a male. and i told you someone would do the math / odds. that sort of math does not work for me - as i lived it, so i know its quite possible.

i have a different theory - that some hets are better than others. what i do for a living could not be further than a geneticist, so i might be wrong wrong wrong - but in order to explain my gal, i have to think her pied gene is weak. through the years i've owned so many hets that give me multiple visual offspring in every clutch that to watch another true het squeeze out one in about 30 is insane if you think about it in the odds way you do. but if you think of it as faulty wiring... the n it makes a bit of sense. somehow the gene does not get passed on - i'd need a biologist to explain this better than myself, how this might possibly be the case - or to say it's not possible. in the meantime, she does not breed often for me, and at this point, i give her het offspring away for free.

i have a lot of other pied stock from all different sorts of breeders and i do well with them - as well as other forms of recessives. but this one girl is faulty, there is no other way to look at it.

to answer yr other question, i used a proven by me male het the first two times. then another proven by me male het the third time. then a visual pied male the fourth time - that gave me the one pied.

Agreed, the "Odds Gods" can be ball busters... pun intended.

The odds gods do love to mess with people.

Two clutches spring to mind for me. One was a 5 egg clutch where 4 went bad...and the survivor was a normal. At least it was a female...

Then I had an AWESOME clutch of 5 eggs, 5 pastels...
sexes? 4 males, 1 female. -insert sad trumpet-

But then once in a while you get one like last year.
5 eggs, 4 pewters, 1 cinnamon.
2.2 pewters, and the cinny was a girl...so they do have compassion sometimes. Haha.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

www.youtube.com/reptilenexus

I have know breeds that have been 50 eggs in on hets to get there first morph. So thy it again. Most breeds will take pictures of the clutches as they are laid and after they are born. A good breed wouldn't have a problem sending them to you. there is always a marking on a snake that will stand out. When I was a breeder I have had people call me that was looking at buying hets second hand I would always go out of my way to try to help them before they got a het from someone else that I produced or was said I produces...

Weird. I've never had an issue with Outback Reptiles. I have several animals from them. All are doing great.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

www.youtube.com/reptilenexus

So you got gutted by someone. Maybe several people.

Quit the INDUSTRY. Not the HOBBY. Do you still enjoy keeping snakes? Get some "normals", and/or some other species that you like and keep them as a hobby. Noone said you have to breed the animals you keep. You will never own a snake again because you have a bad taste in you mouth?

Sounds like cowardice to me.

First off, dont assume that because I'm getting rid of alll my ball pythons that I will not keep any pets for myself. I'll be keeping a number of animals that are "pets" vice breeders. It is the hobby/industry side that is being left behind. Second, you sound like a child to speak like that and call me a coward. Grow a pair? What kind of nonsense is that to say. If it was your attempt to give a pep-talk then you failed miserably.

Edited on March 7, 2012 at 09:32:00 by PHFaust.

Ah. So you WILL be remaining in the HOBBY. By keeping snakes. Right? What you meant is that you are leaving the "INDUSTRY". Right?

See, you put a slash between hobby and "industry". As if they are related. They are very different to me.

Jog on!

I think everyone has been scammed more than once by a big guy or little guy in this industry. It seems anymore, that it is how you know you have been welcomed into this scientific hobby by being scammed once or twice lol. I think the big problem was when prices lowered on a lot of reptiles the scum bags were able to afford to buy and trade to get into this hobby. Now anyone and everyone has the same thing for sale and they will sell you fake hets, sick snakes, wrong sexes and others to get the all mighty buck. If everyone got out of this scientific hobby from being F**ked over there would be no hobby left.

Thanks,
Chris Nace,

Sorry to see anyone leave but maybe not so bad if from the later posts you are keeping some snakes just maybe not trying to run a business selling them. I'd still breed if they were all illegal to ship and I had to give them all away so hard for me to understand letting something as insignificant as people get in the way of snakes, lol.

Anyway, all this talk of fake hets everywhere got me thinking again about parthenogenesis. Maybe I'm just too trusting but I have a hard time believing MOST breeders are dishonest. What if parthenogenesis is COMMON in ball pythons and the homozygous recessive males aren't always the fathers (because there is no father)? Now that we have lots of homozygous co-dominant males is anyone seeing offspring that don't show the male's gene? I'm sure even at today's prices this would still be a very touchy subject so I don't know if the thunderous silence every other time I've brought it up is because it's a hair brained theory that just doesn't happen or because no one is willing to spill the beans.

If parthenogenesis does regularly happen even in bred females a simple paternity test could restore faith in hets. As an eventual potential seller I'd be willing to shell out something if an economical paternity test could be developed to protect my sales and for peace of mind. I read once they have paternity tests for most every domestic animal and even some fish so why not snakes?
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Randy Remington
anyone@snakemorphs.com
www.SnakeMorphs.com
FaceBook

Wouldn't parthenogenesis produce ONLY female offspring?
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Sed et serpens erat callidior cunctis animantibus terrae quae fecerat Dominus Deus...

>I read once they have paternity tests for most every domestic >animal and even some fish so why not snakes?

Just a quick answer to your question here. Most domestic animals have been fully sequenced. Ball pythons have not. Without sequence data you cannot really design a guaranteed test. For some mutations (like classic Albino) you might be able to make a guess, but even the best guess could fail if the sequence is too divergent.

That is actually incorrect. While we do not have a Ball python genome sequence as of yet, the Burmese python genome is underway. Regardless, in order to determine parthenogenesis we do not need a ball python genome. I can readily perform that test using microsatellite markers that cross amplify from other python species. Currently, I have genotyped a number of ball pythons using markers originally obtained from Morelia.

Additionally, in Pythonids, the only case of verified parthenogenesis has been in Burmese pythons. In that case the eggs were not allowed to incubate to full term, therefore no actual living parthenogenetic burmese python is known to exist. In that burm study, the 7 babies were identified as female. In Boidae all known parthenogens have been female (all documented by me). In Caenophidians (derived snake lineages including rattlesnakes, pitvipers, colubrids, watersnakes, etc) all parthenogens have been male. I have samples to process from Ball pythons but am waiting until I set up my new lab at the University of Tulsa in the Fall.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

Dr. Booth,

I think we are talking at cross to one another.

I was _not_ saying we need the Ball genome to determine parthenogenesis, as you point out, that is easy to accomplish right now.

What I was saying was that a quick screen to test for "hets", something like a simple PCR screen, you need the genome. You cannot create primers to Albino, three different Axanthics, Hypo, Clown, Lav, Caramel, Utramel, Genetic Stripe, Pied, etc., unless you know the sequence you are trying to detect. Sure, for something like Albino I can probably take a stab in the dark from all the other, known Tyr gene regions that have been sequenced and have a reasonable chance at succeeding but where would I begin if I wanted to test for Clown? What gene codes for Clown?

Exciting time to think of all the tests that can be done.

But my original point was that we need a basic paternity test like they have had for years and years before full sequences. I could submit a shed from my male pied and submit sheds from any of his presumed daughters I might want to sell as 100% hets and I wouldn't have to worry about if mom retained sperm or produced some babies through parthenogenesis. I suppose I could still worry about an error that left the mutation out, lol. Wacky ball pythons, don't they read the basic text books about how simple and reliable Mendelian genetics are supposed to be ...
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Randy Remington
anyone@snakemorphs.com
www.SnakeMorphs.com
FaceBook

With all the paradox animals that might be chimeras (twins merged into one etc.) I'm wondering if there are some subtle chimeras that look like a homozygous animal but at least sometimes reproduce as a normal or het sibling.
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Randy Remington
anyone@snakemorphs.com
www.SnakeMorphs.com
FaceBook

i've posted this boy on here before at least twice. sold to me for 2k as a butter splatter. i trust the breeder, he believed this to be the case. after multiple pairings with my mojave girl, no splatters, no butters, no white snakes. just mojaves and wild types. i've also bred him to many normals / albino hets... creating possible hets and normals... basically normals, never a splatter, never a butter.

for this reason, everytime someone poss a gorgeous paradox on here and claime the snake is whatever the domint / more intersting bleed through is what their snake is, i cringe a bit.

if my snake posted here is carrying wild type genes, then i believe so are alot of the paradoxes landing.

the original breeder has offered to swap me a new 2k worth of snake(s) for this boy, and i do intend to take him up on that when he has something i truly want. in both cases, where i've had this crazy bad luck, both breeders have been very professional to deal with.

i forgot to post the photo... here is the "butter splatter" that is actually just a wild type under the fancy paint job.

Given your information that your het pied female that only produced 1 in 30 pieds was with different proven males I'm now wondering if she could also be a chimera (just a merger of two normal looking siblings so not as obvious as the paradox merger of dissimilar morphs). The thing is I can't explain how she could be from an expected 100% het clutch and have a sibling to be combined with that isn't a het at all. Does she have good markers? Maybe she was from a possible het clutch and the breeder felt confident enough in the markers to sell her as a 100% het. And looks like the breeder was right as far as the part he can see but what if one of her ovaries is from a non het sibling and maybe for some reason that ovary is even more active (or even if they are both equal only hitting 1 in 15 from the het ovary is not as bad a luck as hitting only 1 in 30 if both ovaries are het)? So basically chimera’s could be an explanation for both paradox and normal looking “weak” hets that consistently produce at much lower rates than expected.
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Randy Remington
anyone@snakemorphs.com
www.SnakeMorphs.com
FaceBook

hi randy,

she does not have the classic makers. i have proven hets that have them, and proven hets that do not.

this breeder is as solid as they get, so when they sold me this snake they were sure what i was getting. so i'm sure the whole clutch was hets or hets and visuals.

of course, running a large operation, everyone will make a number of mistakes and i was convinced an intern switched a snake by accident or some such scenario... but all it takes is that one snake - she's now technically a 100% pied het. but i think with faulty wiring... i cannot put it any other way.

If you and others are regularly seeing these "week gene" hets that consistently produce at very much lower than expected rates then there must be some scientific explanation of this phenomenon. You didn't get about 1/4 dead eggs in her clutches did you? Maybe there are some wild type genes that aren't compatible with piebald? Obviously just getting bad odds is always the most likely explanations but the value of figuring the actual odds is to start to see if they are bad enough to suggest an unexpected explanations.
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Randy Remington
anyone@snakemorphs.com
www.SnakeMorphs.com
FaceBook

i hear you randy and respect your point, - doing the math, even when the odds get that weird still helps you say "ok, what else might be at work here?". all the egss were good... she's a big healthy gal, and does not go every year - she's stingy, but when she's ready, she's plump and the eggs are good.

for the same reason that i dont mention the breeders name, is the same reason why others are not always honest about these things - whether my weak het / gene theory is scientifically viable or not, breeders do not want the possible stigma of potential customers thinking "wasn't buckley's 1 in 30 het from him/her?... think i'll purchase elsewhere - just to be safe". who wants to risk that sort of bad odds.

i'd also be interested in knowing if the females that throw low white pieds show to throw fewer visible offspring than those who throw high white. i may be way out in left field with this, but if i have this gal that seems "faulty" and her one offspring was very low white, it's just something to think about... though clearly theory cannot be built on that one snake and i'm not throwing much weight behind the theory... i'm simply curious if there might be a correlation... but it's an interesting thought, and maybe those who breed tons of pieds have noticed if there is indeed a difference in success rate in these low white / high white clutches.

Interesting about the low white pied angle. Any chance the one "pied" was a really extreme belly markered ringer het? Or maybe her homozygous pieds are so low that some looked like hets?
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Randy Remington
anyone@snakemorphs.com
www.SnakeMorphs.com
FaceBook

no, he was a low white, but not so low that you had to tell just by the pied patten... and more than enough pure white to not be a ringer - just your basic low white pied, pretty good looking snake actually.

you guys are all reaching way too far and waaaay over complicating simple cases of bad luck, thats all there is to it. there is not "weak gene hets" or any of that hooey. its just simple bad luck. she produced a pied, she is het, breed her to only a visual for increased odds, end of story
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www.bamreptiles.webs.com
www.facebook.com/bamreptiles

Guess I was over thinking it. A paternity test would/should be easy enough.

Unfortunately its still not simple even with a genome in hand. The reason being is that we need to annotate that genome. Without have any reference gene that may code for "clown" or anything else like that we are going nowhere. I cannot see that day coming any time soon.

A genome is nothing without it being fully annotated and that is something that is still not even done with humans.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

I disagree that a genome must be fully annotated for it to be useful but I do understand the point you are making.

I guess I am just more of an optimist when it comes to possibilities. If someone had the means and motive to put a WT on something like a 454 FLX or an Illumina HiSeq that would provide a reference. Then, using some of the cheaper TGS available and 4GS that are coming down the pipe (especially if OxfordNanopore lives up to the hype), one could rapid fire the morphs. Run alignments and you should be able to find the locus. You do not need to know the gene, the operon, the function or any of that, just find the difference.

Like you, I do not imagine it will happen any time soon, after all how many PIs are out there studying the genetics of ball pythons? But I do not think it is some epic project that defies the mind of mere mortals.

There are too many variables to even consider running morphs against wild types. To start with, you will need to run multiple from each lineage in order to reduce the likelihood that you are seeing simple variation across lineages. In the end, you will not come out with the gene of interest. You will end with a number of genes that MAY be involved. As someone using 454 and illumina regularly for my research, I can tell you its not as easy as people might think. Additionally, to do these runs is not exactly cheap. Furthermore, in order to insure accuracy you need sufficient coverage of the genome and that is even more expensive.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

I am not wholly unfamiliar with the capabilities and costs involved in sequencing. While I have not (yet) worked on the Illumina platform I have worked/am currently working with SOLiD, ION, PacBio and 454 performing at least a sequence a week up to occasionally 2 sequences a day.

Yes, the costs of sequencing can be high. Start to finish a 454 run is ~$20,000, that is no small chunk of change. However, an ION run is an order of magnitude less. And OxNano is claiming to be $900 or less per run. This is why I laid it out the way I did; Deep sequence your reference genome (454, Illumina, SOLiD) as a baseline and subsequent sequences do not need to be as deep (fraction chips on 454, ION, PacBio). Also, I never constrained the hypothetical project to only performing a single sequence per morph either, I said rapid fire the morphs. The much reduced runtimes of the TGS systems would allow someone to potentially pull off an average of 3-4 sequences per day.

Additionally, I disagree that a single run is, necessarily, insufficient for acquiring the data you want. I grant that you would need to perform multiple sequence runs in a case where a SNP is responsible for the mutant phenotype. Obviously in a case like this you would have to to be able to confirm the SNP. But mutations are caused by more than just SNPs, there are in/dels, rearrangements, duplications... Mutations like these would be fairly obvious in a single sequence run. I do not think all of the 60 base mutations are going to be this easy to find but I do think a good number would be so you would not have to repeat sequence runs (n) times over for each and every mutation. And if someone was feeling really creative they could do comparative transcriptomes in addition to the genomes which could sign post loci.

You and I see the capabilities of the technology differently, I guess my experience with it is different than yours. But, as I said, I am an optimist when it comes to what can be done with this stuff. I am not saying it will be cheap (though it is cheaper now than it would have been even 3 years ago and it is just going to keep getting cheaper) and I am not saying it will be a cake walk (though again, it would be easier now than it was a few years ago) all I am saying is that it is not impossible, nor is it improbable.

I don't think we see things differently at all. I just fail to see the actual validity in such an extensive project given the cost of most ball pythons now. While its not necessarily impossible, I doubt this will ever actually happen.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

I can agree with the latter part of your statement without hesitation.

As far as the prior... I have often been told I am less of a scientist for it but I have the "Why climb Everest?" mindset Because it is there. Why is it valid to spend so much time and effort to sequence ball pythons? Because you can. I just think it would be cool to see it done and so I would love to see it done. It is not going to change the world and it is not going to cure cancer but I, at least, think it would be really fun.

Once the Burm genome is finished we will have a scaffold that will make the sequencing of a ball python genome a lot easier. Will it happen any time soon? Who knows. The question is what can we learn from it? With a solid question there is no point doing it. If it was just to determine the location of putative genes for morphs, then that is entirely non-fundable. I know I personally would not put any of my new lab startup into that project. Now, if it was to determine genes linked to parthenogenetic reproduction I would definitely put research effort and money in that direction, and most likely will be in the next two years. Its unlikely it will involve ball pythons however. More likely Boa constrictor, Agkistrodon contortrix, and Agkistrodon piscivorus.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

So how expensive would it be to develop a commercial paternity test and could the same test work for all snake species?

If parthenogenesis is common in snakes providing such a service to breeders who want to certify the paternity of their hets could give you the inside track to lots of parthenogenic test subjects.

Even if it's not, the revenue from providing such a service could fund research into more complicated genetic issues than simple paternity testing.
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Randy Remington
anyone@snakemorphs.com
www.SnakeMorphs.com
FaceBook

Right now I can offer this service for Boa constrictor, Epicrates, Nerodia, Morelia, Thamnophis, and Python regius. It is not simply an universal test as the markers we use, in general, are species specific. Some amplify across species, so for example, markers developed for Morelia generally amplify well in Python.

As for cost, it really is a case by case issue. I extract DNA from shed skins from the parents and offspring. I then use microsatellite markers to determine paternity. In general, this now costs around the same as a human paternity test. I should be offering this as a formal service once I establish my new lab at the University of Tulsa in the fall.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

Awesome! I'm no business expert but thought we could use a paternity test for years. I sold a girl dirt cheap this last year that I might have kept if I could have been sure who her father was.
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Randy Remington
anyone@snakemorphs.com
www.SnakeMorphs.com
FaceBook

How can a parthenogenesis baby snake be male? I thought that sex in snakes is determined by sex chromosomes as in mammals. A female should them be able to supply only "female" chromosomes (X for lack of a better name, don't know if that;s how they are called in snakes). Shouldn't then parthenogenesis babies have only X chromosomes? How can a Boa produce males by parthenogenesis?
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Sed et serpens erat callidior cunctis animantibus terrae quae fecerat Dominus Deus...

Because in snakes the homogametic sex is the males (ZZ) and the heterogametic sex is the females (ZW). As such it is entirely possible to generate a male from parthenogenesis.

Snakes do not possess X and Y sex chromosomes. They have Z and W. Females are the heterogametic sex (i.e.ZW). Males on the other hand are ZZ. Futhermore, across snake lineage we see heteromorphism in the sex chromosomes. In the basal lineages (i.e. Boidae and Pythonidae) we see no size difference in the sex chromosomes, whereas in the more derived lineages we see size variation. What makes it further confusing is that the sex determination genes are known to exist on different chromosomes in different lineages. One last thing, the mode of parthenogenesis used across different lineages varies, therefore in some we see terminal fusion automixis. This essentially results in half clones of the mother, therefore the parthenogens can either be ZZ (male) or WW (female). This later arrangement was considered not viable until my research in 2011 on Boids. THe former results in males. This form is considered employed the boidae resulting in WW females, and in the Caenophidians, resulting in ZZ males. In the Pythonids, they appear to use a different mode which essentially results in clones of the mother, and thus ZW. So, all things combined results in variation in the sex and chromosomal arrangement/level of heterozygosity across the genome in different snake lineages. Its not simply a case of all parthenogens are female.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

This is very interesting!. I didn't know female snakes were ZW and males ZZ...I called it "X" for lack of a better name.
Thanks!
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Sed et serpens erat callidior cunctis animantibus terrae quae fecerat Dominus Deus...

Let me take your place!
i LOVE my snakes!
Quit being such a ............
drama. drama drama... great way to get attention for a sale, btw

Clearly you have a hard time reading...Letting them go for a fraction of market value is hardly selling...and its comments like yours that detract from real issues. There should be an age limit on here to limit pre-teens from running at the mouth.

Where are you parents...Go bother them for a while.

And for the mod...email me, I'll gladly pay you a few bucks since you automatically assume that this is a "for sale" ad...

I will clarifiy the TOS again.

Advertising, except for events, is not allowed in the discussion forums, photo galleries, or chat rooms. The intention behind this rule is to keep commercial transactions off our discussion forums, photo galleries, or chat rooms and not to prevent our users from sharing useful resources with each other.

"Advertising" generally means the solicitation or statement that you have animals and/or items that are for sale, trade, wanted, free/being given away, stud service, or for adoption. Advertising also covers promotion of websites, newsletters, products, etc. We have an extensive classifieds area to meet your advertising needs and posts of that nature belong there. In regards to the photo galleries, the classified forums have their own set of terms of service. Classified account holders, please be sure to review the classifieds TOS for more information on using the 'member galleries' area for uploading photographs that are to be used in your ads on the classified forums.

However if you would like to purchase a classified account, please click the below link.
Purchase a classified account

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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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Thanks to everyone that posted and especially to those that inquired about the morphs. I decided to just give them to a friend of mine who will finish the breeding season for me. I felt that this was probably the best approach.

Besides, this thread was not intended to turn into a "for sale" post even though it spiraled in that directly for some. Either way, the morphs are essentially gone and I'll continue to focus on other things.

thanks again...And Cindy you're welcome to send me a PM if you'd like to get reimbursed for what you perceived to be a for-sale posting in the forum.

This reminds me of the youtube video of WIll Ferrell and his daughter as "Pearl the landlord"....check it out and you'll see what I mean...hillarious!

Lol.

I can read perfectly fine. I think selling is selling, even if the transaction is a "deal" or "on sale" at a "fraction" of the cost.

You are one entertaing dude. I am so amused by your logic.

You are selling because the inustry is making you cry. Wrap it in whatever package you want. My 2 yr old nephew cries when he wants something too.

Forgot to address the so called REAL issue.

What you think is a REAL issue is only real in your own very dramatic and sad world.

There are plenty of people who are:
honest
not all about $
dont blast others for mistakes
dont cry when they dont always get their way

not even free items can be advertised....
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........JY

I had to get out of the hobby two years ago due to a divorce. I had to sell all of my animals including a subadult Ultramel. I regret selling them to this day. Fortunately, today I'm in the position to slowly build up my collection. I agree with you concerning your position on some "big breeders" and I would include a large breeder on your list of good guys on my list of pompous jerks in the hobby. However, my suggestion to you is keep your animals, buy from trusted breeders, and take chances on other breeders who seem honest. After all, nothing in life is guaranteed except for the fact you will regret selling off your animals.