Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just spoke to Sen Gayle Mannings office about the proposed legislation in Ohio. I was told that boas will be taken off the list , because of the massive amounts of phone calls ! (REALLY ? ) Obviously this isnt set in stone yet , but she told me that was the plan. Thanks USARK, PIJAC , and for all of you who sent letters and made phone calls. Sure beats a law suit !

What about the ridiculous permit fees etc on everthing else?

I was told boas will not be part of the legislation , so no permits or insurance will be necessary. I still need to see it before I fully believe it , but we are not falling on deaf ears. Thank God. The fight continues for the other reptiles on the list. Burms probably have a tougher road. Keep Fighting !!!

Also I am not so sure I would believe anything some phone jockey in a Senators office might tell you. They could be fed up with the phone calls and say anything just to get rid of you.

doubtful, she was very cordial and said she had just had a converstion with the senator. I think its done , but I wanna see the final draft.

she was realy cordial? Are you kidding me? You want to see the final draft? A Draft as in its not put forward for a vote yet draft? This is what I'm taking about.
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Honesty is my only policy
www.mikepanicreptiles.com

be careful my friend. A statement like that will get you attacked in here. Even if it is the truth.
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Honesty is my only policy
www.mikepanicreptiles.com

I know everyone including politicians like going to work in peace and quiet. and the prospect of having a mob of angry boa and other snake owners protesting is the last thing they want. It doesnt hurt that boas have no horse in why this haste legislation is happening, but we all know it doesnt take a horse to have idiots trying to take them away from us. Why I suggest is the calls keep pouring and keep vigilant to the final draft. Trust but Verify.

yeah but what snakes were left on the bill? Did phone calls work for those breeders? Its bigger than just Boas as I tried to say last week. I wasnt attacking anyone personally. Right or wrong, I was just sharing some thoughts. But since you geared this post towards me(be honest now, LOL) lets go ahead and go through it again. First, like I said in the last post, you spoke to an assistant of the rep. Someone who has no decision making authority whatsoever. And as you said, nothing is set in stone yet. I know this may shock you and dont spread this around....but politicians lie(not that you even spoke with one). Anyway, I hope everyone realizes that I'm pro USARK and the fight for ALL reptile breeders but to make such a foolish statement at this point is just pumping up hopes for no reason and downright irresponsible in my opinion. You have nothing concrete other than a phone call with a rep to the rep(sound familiar?) You are claiming victory to a battle that has not been decided yet and this has been my main point all along. If you want to go ahead and attack me again....bring it on. Mike Panichi
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Honesty is my only policy
www.mikepanicreptiles.com

Why do you insist on trying to rain on good news. The reason burms and retics are under heavier attack, is because nobody did anything until it was too late. The numbers game is at play as well. More boa people are calling , and the financial impact is greater. Pythons are way more sensationalized than boas and are deemed a huge problem in Florida. We are trying to save all reptiles , but it may be difficult . Thank God for our numbers and efforts, or we would be gone and outlawed and you could go ahead and raise the money for your law suit.

I'm absolutely NOT trying to rain on your (or anyones) parade. Lets not forget the post was aimed at me, clearly. And so I respond. Its nothing personal. What you just did was FURTHER a non truth. Plain and simple. The info you just spread was based on nothing. Why cant you guys just let USARK make these announcements based on FACTS?
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Honesty is my only policy
www.mikepanicreptiles.com

I spoke 100% truth. The Senator said Boas were off the list. I also said , until the final draft, I will need to see to believe. No reason whatsoever for the senator to lie to my face. To me this is a positive event. To you , it seems to be a moment of anger and doubt. I choose my way.

im with you dan, not sure where mike saw "cheer for victory" or mission accomplished in your post nor mine, yours says about a comment you heard and mine said about a meeting that happened and what I gathered and drew from it. i was literal in my statements and i got vibes, and i stated what those were but by no means is there victory lap anywhere.....i beleive they will leave boas alone cause there are too many owners that enjoy them and boas have not caused any harm. this whole thing in ohio is knee jerk to a disturbed person and act of suicide, why any policy should be made based on such freak occurances is beyone me...

but Manny, you took the entire thing personally so just admit it. I appreciate other people working for my best interests. Thats what lobysts are supposed to do. I am not the only one who responded in such a fashion in either of these discussions. Are you two somehow smarter then the other guys who disagreed with you two. And todays post as well. What Exotics said made alot of sense. Will you attack him now?
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Honesty is my only policy
www.mikepanicreptiles.com

I am not attacking you. I don't think that I'm more right or wrong than anybody. I just thought a few nuggets of a positive information from a senator would be nice to share with all of us. I don't mind if you post, as long as you don't mind if I post. All of us know the fight will continue for our lifetimes. Anything worthwhile is worth fighting for. You need to work on your stamina. Didn't you ever have double sessions in football? Embrace the grind. Fatigue makes cowards of us all, so get in shape and turn your very intellegent self into an asset.

you know what? I have not taken anything that was said in any of these posts personally, until now. I really feel like I need to tell you this. For you, stamina is about football. Thats what you said. Football. For me...."stamina" is about not coming home to my own family for four(or more)days because some ex-con sodomized and strangled an 88 year old church going woman. No sleeping,eating or showering because there is no time to waste. "Stamina" is about keeping the pressure on until a murderer has been captured and brought to justice. When I dont think I have anything left to give and I want to come home to sleep in my own bed and see my daughter, I dig down deeper for "stamina" so I can continue. Why? Because its the right thing to do and we cannot have murderers and evil men walking amoung our children. When a victims mother or father calls every Christmas for YEARS because their loved ones case has never been solved and they want to know if there are any leads, I dig down to the bottom of the barrel for "stamina" so I can put my game face on and tell them that we are doing everything we can. You brought up marriages and wives in your other response. My wife knows something about "stamina" as well. When I'm gone she's holding it all together while I am working for STRANGERS. Every time there is a power outage, hurricane or blizzard and I am no where to be found. When my daughter is hurt and I'm not around. Every birthday and holiday I miss. When she thinks she hears something outside and I havent been home in days she digs down deep and finds the "stamina" to continue so DONT GIVE ME THAT CRAP ABOUT STAMINA OR COWARDICE. It is you who really has no concept of stamina my friend. And while we are on the subject, I freely admit that when it comes to politics and lawyers, I'm negative and biased even. The reason is, I am around them all of the time. I have spent days and weeks(months even) testifying in all kinds of trials, hearings and meetings. FOR YEARS, I have been on the stand, testifying in all forms of Courts Of Law. Federal, State, out of State, Parole, Probation....you name it. I have flown all over the Country to apprehend thugs and murderers so they can be brought back to justice. I like to think I know a little about the law. Maybe the reason you and I dont see things the same way is simply because I deal in facts and evidence and you simply take someones word for it. I dont expect you to care, appreciate or even grasp any of this. Just dont give me that nonsense. You give me a break.
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Honesty is my only policy
www.mikepanicreptiles.com

Wow, thanks for the life story. I have no doubt you are a good man (maybe a little thin skinned) . You need some help on interpretation. I passed along news that was positive , and you dont like it. Never said it was a done deal. Again, I think it is ok to let others know that they shouldnt lose hope and our efforts may bear some fruit. I wont tell you my life story, but it cant compare to your heroic career. No personal offense ever intended. Kinda like you when you unintentionally offended Manny. I am out of stamina at this point and finished with the thread.

Let Manny decide for himself why he felt insulted. With respect to Manny though, whatever abuse, critisim, or whatever I got as a result of that thread, I deserved. I answered it without invitation. I actually have alot of respect for Manny as a breeder of boas. But your thread was aimed at me and I will respond every time. At least with Manny, we have spoken over the phone a few times and conversed through emails. He may not like me but at least there is a mutual respect(I think). Stamina, now thin skinned. Again, your problem is, you just shoot from the hip. Its not about my life story but since you seem to know so much about me I wanted to give you some background. Thats all. You have told me twice now what my problem is. Now its my turn and I'll even let you have the last word out of respect for the other forum members. If someone disagrees with you, they are wrong or dumb and you are smarter and correct. You didn't share/spread news, you spread incomplete information and waved it around like it was gospel(and lets be honest here, aimed it at me). Why are you not abusing the other member who basically said the same thing that I did? Because you were looking for my response and you got it.
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Honesty is my only policy
www.mikepanicreptiles.com

Well , I will finish with "Im sorry". No intention to piss you off. We both want the same thing and we are both passionate. I wasnt aiming to offend you , but I still totally stand by my post , and do not think it is jumping the gun to spread a little good news. No hard feelings here and I hope its mutual.

Its not a problem. I hope you have a great season. Mike Panichi
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Honesty is my only policy
www.mikepanicreptiles.com

I said football as a reference, because this is a civil disagreement(supposed to be good clean fun). I stopped playing football in 1984.

first of all, you said you spoke to the Senators office not the Senator. And even if the senator gave you his or her "word" to you personally, it would be meaningless until it was signed into law. And again, if you believe any politician that you do not know personall( and even then) you really are a sucker. For me what you did was act like the average reporter out there. Printing a story without getting ALL of the facts. What you have told us about your phone call is not facts. I'm sorry but thats what it is. I am not angry and it has nothing to do with anger however, if you gear a post towards me I will always respond. Its in my nature. Anyway, when the damn thing is signed into law thats the time to shoot your fireworks off. Not because a person in the Senators office gave you his/her word, LOL.
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Honesty is my only policy
www.mikepanicreptiles.com

No fireworks here unless you ask my wife ! Lol, but just plain good news. Kinda like when you asked your wife out for the 1st time. That should be a positive, but you might say big deal nobody is married and we don't have a house or children.

the fact that you heard them say for themselves we're not going to include boas due to the heavy call volume alone goes to show that you must make noise to be heard. Voting down the line like Mike likes is a fine and dandy but at that point the damage is so great. call call call, then when you fingers are rested call some more. there is nothing more irritating than having angry callers and people showing up angry to your place of business. I experienced that when lenders were not cooperating with the OBAMA HAMP program (Homeowners assistant Mortgage Program) and i would have irrate clients show up all the time, and those were the ones we rushed to get done first. the fussy baby gets the booby...in our case the fact that there were no boa issues in ohio compounded by the thousands of owners that called to tell their story point, in my opinion, to its better left alone....in my business xperience as well as logically is what makes sense...

Ok I agree with you. I only said based on my experiences that at least in NY, phone calls and letters dont do jack and I'm done with them. I'm not telling people dont call or write. I absolutely am saying that what Dan said was based on nonsense and it can wrongly lead people to an incorrect conclusion. Sorry but thats what it is.
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Honesty is my only policy
www.mikepanicreptiles.com

It could only lead a simpleton to the wrong conclusion, and how about a small wager? It amazes me how you could take something and totally respond so out of context. I'll bet a case of beer.

Im not saying it isnt going to happen. Im saying just wait until it does.
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Honesty is my only policy
www.mikepanicreptiles.com

Lets not see anymore ovulations. Just show babies. Ovulations are bits of good news even though the outcome may not be positive. Come on mike. Gimme a break

as of this date, senator balderson (who introduced the bill) is DRAFTING an amendment to remove boas. he still has to officially PROPOSE the amendment, and it still has to GET SUPPORT from a total of 5 of the 9 member of the ag committee to be adopted.

i met in person with balderson's "aid" in charge of the whole issue for him. to add some clarity to the debate on "aides", most state level senators in ohio have only 2 aids: a legislative aid (LA) and an administrative aid. the legislative aid is who is responsible for pretty much everything after the senator's initial "big idea" for a bill. he's in charge of getting it drafted, drafting amendments, and pretty much everything other than the "big picture" stuff, which the senator himself does. yes, ultimately the senator is "in charge", but the legislative aid is the guy who actually gets things done. HE is the guy you have to speak with and convince that you know what you're talking about in order to get someone to even CONSIDER an amendment.

i spent about an hour and a half speaking with balderson's and manning's LAs (both together) about possible changes that would make this bill "friendlier" to us. balderson's LA told me before i even went in there (and even before the USARK "masses" had a chance to call in) that they were going to be working on an amendment to remove boas. more than likely they added boas so they could throw them back to us as if to say "hey, we gave you boas back". it was strategic, and yes: preplanned. it had nothing to do with the calls. to be honest, i spoke with a number of the senators' aids (in person) and most said not many people had called in.

HOWEVER, that does not mean that interested parties shouldn't keep calling. BUT only if you're an ohio citizen. if you're not an ohio citizen they REALLY don't care. and IF YOU DO call/email, don't JUST say you're opposed to the bill. KNOW THE DETAILS OF THE BILL, and propose SPECIFIC ways they can change it to make it better.

also keep in mind that the "boa amendment" hasn't been proposed yet, and for all we know there may not be enough support from the other senators on the committee to get the amendment onto the bill, so don't get your hopes up yet.

Thank you for that. Mike Panichi
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Honesty is my only policy
www.mikepanicreptiles.com

I was told hundreds of calls came in. I do agree that boas were probably just a token, but if the calls arent made , the next time might say "since no one has called , no one cares " the fact that we call , keeps it on their mind. Boas wouldnt be considered on or off any list without our calls. We have said it before, that they only care about the votes. Obviously they are removing boas because they are worried about the vote. They know we are watching. Phone calls are the only reason boas are being removed in my opinion. Why else would the politicians bother to remove boas ? please try and teel me

I'll say it again in my experience with angry calls and disgruntled clients that if they remove boas is because they got tired of something causing them grief Like tons of calls came in, OR will come in if passed with boas included OR the #s of boa owners was made known to them either by a USARK or local society. I know the 1000 handwritten letters must of beared some weight. That's 4 digit people actually doing something in today's day an age where many are just too busy trying to pay their bills and do little else but just watch as things happen. They will not show their hand or weakness and theyll try to sell some power trip about they're being merciful out of the kindness of the heart. But something moved their hand and we'll never hear it from them, but we can speculate, and I think we all know...

I don't agree nor will I ever agree it's ok for us to throw a few animals(and the people who work with them) under the bus so we can have what we work with. Basically your admitting all the lies those in power spread are in fact true. Fight for the right to keep all or non what so ever. Andrew Potts

I don't know of any instance this sacrifice approach has ever been put in use by our side, but the government has definitely given us animals back to put a pacifier in our mouths. However the animals they gave back has always been an animal they wanted to include into their knee jerk policy workout cause.

I am with you that we want all of the big 9 without restriction, but with the burm , its probably the law suit route. Lets keep boas from that road. we dont have the money, and quite frankly I dont want boas banned like the burm. Easier to keep them legal than it is to turn over legislation with a law suit. Lets get all of them back !

"I don't agree nor will I ever agree it's ok for us to throw a few animals(and the people who work with them) under the bus so we can have what we work with. Basically your admitting all the lies those in power spread are in fact true. Fight for the right to keep all or non what so ever. Andrew Potts"

andrew, no offense but that's a pretty naive statement. "all or none" looks great on paper until it comes time to take them all. then whatever chance you had at the beginning to save a few is gone. nobody is throwing ANYBODY under the bus here. that implies we are GIVING them something. that's a completely inaccurate perspective. the REALITY is, they're in the process of TAKING them all already. at NO point did ANYBODY say "well you can have the burms but give us our boas back".

if we take the "no compromise" route, we lose them all. PERIOD. like it or not, we're on THEIR turf now, and have to play by THEIR rules. we have a pretty reasonable chance to get boas back, but very little chance at all to get the rest back. it would be LUDICROUS to turn our noses up at that on principle. the best option we have is to take what we can get (i.e. boas) and do whatever we can to make the bill at least somewhat tolerable for whatever remains on it. that's the tactic I'M taking. if we can get boas back, and get them to amend the permit process/requirements then we've done FAR more good than what YOU are recommending. ignoring reality isn't going to make this all go away...

"Why else would the politicians bother to remove boas ? please try and tell me"

because believe it or not, there are SOME politicians who have at least SOME degree of common sense out there. true, they are few and far between, but in my dealings with balderson's office, he's one of them. he realizes boas account for more business than any other of the species, and also realizes they don't belong on a list with retics/burms/hots let alone lions and tigers.

I dont disagree with you about your statement , except for the congressman with common sense is fine, but without USARK and the mass callings and letter campaigns, his/her common sense doest hear our voice.

it hurts to hear some of what you wrote however its the reality of life. all wars have casualties unfortunately, even when you win a war you lose men. or the proverbial you need to crack a few eggs to make an omellette. i dont want burmese banned but i also dont want boas wearing a black eye on account of burms, so its a delicate balance there. we all fight for all our rights and i think boas because of their marketability and lack of negative spin has the highest chances...

I don't disagree at all! It absolutely sucks! But as you said, it's the REALITY of the situation and too many people refuse to accept that.

True, and another tough pill to swallow is we may "win" in the large scheme of things but still lose a few rights like the burm or the African Rock. and analogy is that even when you win the game the other team still scores on you. to assume that this is only a victory if its a shutout a bit of false expectations and setting hopes up way too high. again, i hate to say it, and its sad as true as it is...im not prepared to lose but i am prepared for the worse outcome all the while expecting and working hard for the best outcome.

Again I say all or none, no middle ground. Andrew Potts

would you rather lose your hand or your head?

Im with you on that Andrew. We cannot sell out and we cannot celebrate because this time, boas made it through. It is not right.
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Honesty is my only policy
www.mikepanicreptiles.com

Ok , if burms are banned and boas arent, will you give up your boas ? We all want all or none ,and maybe after a long expensive law suit we will have just that. I want to keep everything that is still legal .....Legal. All or none is what I want as well. I hope boas remain legal no matter what happens with burms , but I was fighting for burms several years ago and will continue. All or None is a great slogan, but burms are already affected.We are not an ALL or None situation at this point.

All or none is a really jaded way of seeing things to as this could of been none already. And it's now most. But those that want all or none consider most as a waste of time?? They rather none?? Especially here we're in the boa section right? In Florida Andrew hasn't been able to keep and sell offspring of burms for years and he's doing fair with the Aztec project. Why he wouldn't be content knowing his project is cool i dont understand. Ok so Its not exactly cause of celebration but definitely cause for relief and appreciation to those that got you that much. My entire professional career ive seen this kind of give and take with regulators and it's just a fact of life. in real estate it happened after the loan market bubble, the best thing would of been if loans weren't given to under qualified borrowers so easily. Consequences were bad loans, the meltdown, then came the regulators. They were given the open door to step in and ruined and an industry that was great for decades before 1998-2007. I don't have to write the burm story but the case is thru fault of herpers, hurricanes, or who knows regulators got themselves the open door and now we got to negotiate cause they destroy whatever industry they touch, or at least they never leave it the same to say it simply. So how messed up its gonna be going forward is our mission to try to mitigate as best we can or we can lose it. I lost 3 businesses in 4 years due to this and I played by the rules, but jerks that didn't ruined it for everyone.

FYI, For those who may be new to this forum or unaware, the Aztec project Manny mentions is my brother Bob's discovery and the person who gave it such an awesome morph name. He's also the main reason the Aztec mutation is such a success and accomplished so much in such a short period of time. Andrew Potts

PS I will not repeat myself a third time.