Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here are a sweet pair of REAL central Guatemalan milksnakes (L.t.abnorma). About 98% of all other so-called "L.t.abnorma" one looks up on the net are completely bogus examples of Guatemalan polyzona, and other obvious crosses of very unknown origin. It has been this way for decades and there weren't very many authentic specimens of true L.t.abnorma around even many years ago. The last true abnorma I ever saw were back in the early 90's, and I'm sure even my pair that I had back then after I sold them to a pet store doon afterwards have LONG since been carelessly mixed into the "hobby Hondo" melting pot "stew" just like so many other similar subspecies have over the years.

I'm quite happy to say that I am one of only four(4) people in this entire country or Europe with any truly authentic L.t.abnorma from the highlands of central Guatemala (including my good friend the breeder, Scott Ballard). These are offspring that originate from a juvenile trio that was brought into the U.S. back in 2005.

Here is the awesome male. Except for the heads themselves, both of these specimens have so many rings they virtually look like Latin American "zonata" for chissakes..

a good photo depicting his incredibly high ring-count of 32 red body rings (RBR)..

Here is the gorgeous female after she shed just the other day. She has an awesome 31 RBR count!..

Thanks for looking everyone!....

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Not even 30 minutes ago I was outside enjoying what is said to be the first in a series of very fine warm days... contemplating getting the canoe out... thinking of fishing... wondering if I'll be hearing the first of the frogs tonight... and out of the blue the thought it's nice enough weather for Doug to finally have his snakes shipped... wonder when that will happen...

I need wonder no more. Congrats! Been a long wait hasn't it?

Gerry

LOL!!,....that's too funny Gerry!....thanks!

Yes, it was quite a long and anticipating wait!..

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Awesome Man! Glad to see you finally have them in your possession. I know the will stay as pure as they are right now. Great looking ones at that. Damn that wish list just keeps getting bigger and bigger. When does it stop?LOL
-----

Thanks Jimmy,...Yes, you got that right, they will ALWAYS stay true-blue L.t.abnorma as long as I ever have anything to do with them....ALWAYS!..

No extreme hypo "abnorma" anytime soon..HAHA!!..

Yeah, but you already have quite a few nice things that are on everyone else's "wish list". It's only fair that you don't have EVERYTHING cool right off the bat..LOL!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"It's only fair that you don't have EVERYTHING cool right off the bat..LOL!"

That's too funny, My wish list is still longer than my collection list for sure. I haven't even stepped out of Lampropeltis yet. There are a ton of ratsnakes I have been considering working with too. I am stuck like chuck right now. I finally ran out of cage space. Either it is slim down what I have for new projects or build some new racks. I am leaning towards the later.LOL

You can go ahead and put me on that long list for those abnorma that'll give me a few years to build some racks for them.
-----

>>Awesome Man! Glad to see you finally have them in your possession. I know the will stay as pure as they are right now. Great looking ones at that. Damn that wish list just keeps getting bigger and bigger. When does it stop?LOL
>>-----
>>

When your snake collection, out grows your rodent colony, lol.

If your output is greater than your intake, the upkeep will get you every time! I heard that somewhere, thought it would fit here somehow? Sleeeepy time....
-----
What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

If your output is greater than your intake, the upkeep will get you every time!

I think it's the other way around. When your intake is grater than your output, the upkeep will get you everytime.

I do frozen thawed mostly so the rodent breeders would have to stop breeding mice. LOL. I would have to say the 8 (1.3 or 4 per colony)colonies of mice produced enough to be able to feed every thing for the first couple of months. I am rotating them out now so production is slowing down. I want some fresh females for hatching season.
-----

Those are really cool, Doug. They do look like little zonata. To me, the wow factor with these guys is that there are so few of these "pure" abnorma around.
-----

Thanks Ross. I totally agree, the "wow-factor" is definitely in how few of these there actually are, and ever where in the hobby too. Maybe some of us dedicated breeders can keep them from totally disappearing this time around like they did many years ago. I know that is my main goal and concern.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yeah, as long as you guys remain interested, that line will remain untainted. Those look like really cool snakes to work with and without all the ZD drama. lol
-----

LOL!!,.....that cracked me the heck up Ross!..HAHA!!

Yeah, these have the same cool look of zonata without any of the headaches and drama of ZD or ending up on the BOI because of it..

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Now you can get busy making my pair. Lol! I'm glad you finally got them.
-----
Gerard

"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

LOL!,......yours are in the early planning stages..LOL!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Very nice Doug!! There will be lots of folks anxiously waiting for you to grow them up and start producing those!!

Dave

Thanks Dave,....yes, I can certainly believe that will be the case with these. I look real forward to working with these unique gems and eventually producing some..

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

AWESOME! What great examples of such a rare snake in our hobby!!
-----
Genesis 1:1

Thanks Billy!,.......yep, these rare gems couldn't be any nicer or more authentic!

~Doug

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I certainly don't know the difference, but they sure are beautiful!
-----
What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

Thanks Jorge!,....glad you like those little guys.

"I certainly don't know the difference, but they sure are beautiful!"

Yes, and that is exactly why they completely disappeared from the hobby many years ago in the first place..

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Cool deal Doug!

-Rusty

I knew you would dig these Rusty!. They certainly don't resemble all the bogus examples we looked at and talked about when you were over hear a while back..

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Those are awesome Doug. And like you said, no zonata disease to worry about!!! Do they hold their color real well into adulthood?

Joe

HAHA!!,..I just couldn't help myself from posting that over there..LMAO!!

The timing was perfect for it and was hopefully taken as a bit of light-hearted "comedy relief" if nothing else..HAHA!!

Yeah, they get a bit more distinctly tipped, but they definitely stay very noticeably tricolored when mature. The parents of these are still very nice looking too. They don't get all "muddied" and completely taken over by black pigment in their inner light rings like L.t.polyzona would typically do. But having a pure group of poly'z is fine and dandy too in their own right,..their just different in their own unique way like everything else. In the early 90's I saw what where one of the very LAST to be seen adult pair of L.t.abnorma in the entire hobby, and they were also very distinctly black tipped, but their colors remained quite pronounced and contrasting. I actually bought the hatchlings from those parent's I saw as L.t.polyzona..LOL!. There was always lots of confusion regarding many of the Latin milks back then as well as even now, and looking at many books only made things worse and more confusing many times..LOL!. But after many more years of studying and researching more on the Latin milks, in more recent years I have began to get a much better handle on what is really what with their characteristics and what their natural ranges and elevations really are.

It only took like 25 years to finally know what a truly authentic specimen actually looks like..LOL!. The same thing goes for several of the other tropical subspecies too.

That being said, their will ALWAYS be countless unidentifiable milksnakes out there no matter who you are and how much experience you happen to have, because their idenification depends on so darn many important different variables. But with textbook phenotypic examples such as these, I could go to court and testify on a stack of bibles as to what these things truly are...

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Good stuff Doug and I am glad they are in your capable hands. I am not quite on your level at identification on many species, especially when they get a bit tricky and scale counts and other things come into play. I always see you over on the "what kind of snake is this" forum. I love going over there too, kind of like playing a game to me. I will always keep some zonata, but man they are sure a tricky ssp to keep. (or can be anyway). I don't plan on making my colony any larger with z's, or not by much anyway. Keep us posted on those bad boys and I would love to see them as they get older.

Joe

Thanks for the kind words of confidence there Joe. Yes, they will always remain true to form here with me.

LOL!,.yeah, I really like the "what kind" forum. It keeps you on your toes a bit and definitely keeps the ol' ID skills honed as opposed to looking at a lot of the same types of snakes on some of the other forums. I also look at it as a type of "game" as well......and interesting fun one at that..

Best of luck with all of your stuff bro. And I hope to god you never have to mess with any more unfortunate mishaps with your nice zonata collection. That goes for everyone!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Very nice Doug. Glad for them to be under your care.

--Dennis

Thanks Dennis. I really appreciate that!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Those are nice Doug. They look a lot like the polyzona I got from Ernie Wagner back in the early 80's.

"Those are nice Doug. They look a lot like the polyzona I got from Ernie Wagner back in the early 80's"

Yeah, I can certainly believe that Don. Because they look EXACTLY like the so-called "polyzona" I got from Jim Mabe back in 1994-95 and was obviously way before he, I, and virtually any others actually knew what the real differences between them actually were. Many folks (including me) had it completely ass-backwards back then. And of course most people still don't know the differences and are just as confused as they were decades ago. The gross errors with photo depictions in most of the books out there only make this more problematic and confusing, and has simply perpetuated all this even further still over the years.

If you happen to own the 1990 TFH publication by Ronald G. Markel "Kingsnakes and Milksnakes, on page 77 is a genuihe L.t.abnorma that was also owned by Scott Ballard back in the late 80's. The so-called "L.t.abnorma" in Applegates book, Systematics, and many other books are bogus northern lowland Guatemalan bi-colored polyzona, and/or polyzona x abnorma intergrades, and if you do a google image search there are countless other bogus representations as well. Hondo's, abnorma/polyzona, stuarti,.........it's all in there..LOL!

The alleged L.t.abnorma (Guatemala) photo in Systematics on page 118 is actually a stuarti x oligozona specimen from Escuintla,Guatemala and is located in the extreme pacific side slope on the coastal lowlands where stuarti and oligozona's ranges overlap. What's even funnier still and even MORE ironic is that this very same snake is also depicted on page 111 as an L.t.oligozona from a different photo angle..HAHAHA!!

Anyway, you're right Don, many of the Latin milks have been grossly confused and misrepresented for decades, and they will continue to be for most folks. If Ernies milks had 31 and 32 RBR like mine do and also had thin triads and straight across snout bands, Ernie didn't know the difference back then either. Certainly not very surprising.......how many did then?, or even do now?..LOL!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"