Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So I have 6 hoggies at home. The three males are all of a healthy normal weight. 2 of my females came in underweight for their age (one is 3-4 years I think and only ~100 grams) and one of my own females is underweight due to people telling me to feed her only one pinky/fuzzy a week.

The females are all on a proper diet and are gaining weight now.

Here's the debate. I'm all set to introduce the males and females April 1st. They cooled down well and seem to be doing everything they should according to what I've read. However, I'm not sure if I should let the females breed.

On one hand, I want too, on the off chance I can at least get a couple of babies from the snakes. But I would not breed them if their being underweight could cause serious health issues.

So, if I let them lock up, what are the health risks of letting them breed underweight? Or is it more likely that they just wont become gravid because they're not at their optimum weight?

This is my first time hitting breeding season with males and females at the right age and mostly right size to breed. I've never done this before, so any advice or help you can offer would be much appreciated.
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3.3 Western Hognose
0.1 Ball Python

I am a bit surprised you have not received a response what with all of the experienced breeders on this forum and we are discussing the health of the snakes we all love but I cannot speak as to whether your post has been seen by any of these breeders. So, my input. They are too small. Breeding them now might compromise their ability to breed successfuly in the future and could be adverse to their health. I believe 300 grams maybe a bit less is the accepted weight to breed at for a female.

Thanks! I hadn't thought about it affecting future breeding with these guys.
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3.3 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons

A 100 gram female is probably going to become egg bound if bred. Not worth the risk. Work on feeding them a lot this year and see where you're at next year weight wise.

Great! This is the kind of stuff I was hoping to find out (the increased risk in the animal being egg bound). I think I will just shoot for next season then. It's farther behind than I wanted to be, but my breeders are my pets, and I couldn't knowingly put them at risk like that.
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3.3 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons

I wouldn't even call 100 grams underweight, those are underage! Seriously, I would not recommend attempting to breed any female under 200 grams because the risk of eggbinding is far too great. Even 200 grams can be too small depending on the strength of the female and the size of her eggs. Not all eggs come out the same size, some animals are prone to laying very large eggs and until you breed them, you won't know what they might genetically be predisposed to offer in terms of egg size. For example, we had a 325 gram female lay 16 typical sized eggs. Then I had a 250 gram female lay 4 eggs that were twice as big until she finally became eggbound with the remaining 3 because they were such a strain on her to pass. I had to perform a paracentesis (sticking a hypodermic through the abdomen into the egg and sucking the yolk out) so that I could reduce the size of the eggs for her to pass. It's a risky procedure if not done correctly but gladly, this particular female (Twix, our Superconda) recovered fully and actually is in the process of double clutching on me as I type this.

Bottom line is, be patient and let the snakes become large enough before attempting to breed them. It's far more rewarding successfully hatching out babies from a healthy female than having eggbound females die which also sets back your timetable drastically.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

"I wouldn't even call 100 grams underweight, those are underage!"

Technically, they -are- of age, they have just been severely underfed. *shakes head* I know that overfeeding is bad, but for people to be so concerned that they end up starving their snakes really disturbs me.

I had no idea about the egg sizes. Maybe it's ignorant of me, but I never considered the fact that snakes of the same species could lay different sized eggs.

You're right though. I don't want to risk my snakes getting egg-bound or dying. They're my pets as well as breeders, and I would be really upset if they died. Not only that but, as you said, it would set my ability to breed back by a lot too.

The only other thing I was curious about that you mentioned was using the syringe to drain the egg yolk. We had an egg-bound snake in the collection I worked with (a dud as the snake had never been with a male) and when I alerted my boss to the fact, he simply put pressure and squeezed downward on the snake (oddly like milking a cow) until the egg came out. Could this method be used instead of a syringe, or is it dangerous? Did the hatchling of the egg who's yolk you drained survive?
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3.3 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons

Technically, they -are- of age, they have just been severely underfed.

Well, they might be in the age range that other females fully mature at, but there are some females that just never grow to a breedable size. Case in point, we have a female albino who is about 5 years old now that has never past 150 grams due to digestion problems, mainly semi-frequent regurgitation for unknown reasons. I have females that are younger than her that are now 300 grams and breeding. Perhaps your animals came from someone who was deliberately underfeeding these animals for whatever reason, but then again, some animals are genetically inept at attaining breedable status. Just something to consider...

I had no idea about the egg sizes. ...I never considered the fact that snakes of the same species could lay different sized eggs.

Sure, it's not really any different than any other species just like with us humans. We've all heard stories of 300 lb women having babies at 4-5 lbs while women weighing 120 lbs giving birth to 8-9 lb babies.

We had an egg-bound snake in the collection and ...simply put pressure and squeezed downward on the snake until the egg came out. Could this method be used instead of a syringe, or is it dangerous?

Pushing eggs out, a form of palpation, is far more recommended if it can be done safely. Sometimes females just become tired and can't push out the remaining eggs. Palpation then is a viable and preferred option. If the eggs are too large, palpation is not always a possibly. One risk with palpating eggs is that you are applying pressure to internal organs and veins/arteries. If you are too aggressive with the procedure, you can cause internal damage.

I was curious about that you mentioned was using the syringe to drain the egg yolk. ...Did the hatchling of the egg who's yolk you drained survive?

Performing a paracentesis is risky and destroys the egg. It is only performed as a last ditch effort to save the female.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Thank you so much for your reply! You've definitely given me a lot to think about and I can most certainly say I actually learned something today.

Two of my females have been eating with me and gaining weight like crazy, which leads me to believe they were simply underfed. However, I do have a female I acquired a couple years ago who has just never had a big appetite. Her metabolism seems faster than most in that she tends to lose weight pretty quickly if she doesn't eat (or at least she did. She didn't drop any over brumation though). But she's always been a real slow eater and it's rare that she eats all that I offer her (2 fuzzies twice a week). I will be sad if she never reaches breeding weight, but I'd rather keep her as a pet or for education than risk killing her by making her breed when she isn't able too.
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3.3 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons

I would like to add my 2 cents.
Egg binding is generally not actually associated with the actual size of the snake. Egg binding can affect any snake at any size. It has more to do with dehydration, lack of exercise, and vitamin and mineral deficiency. My last concern about breeding smaller females is the risk of egg binding. You have to figure, in the wild, reptiles reach sexual maturity at a small size. In the wild, a 2 to 3 year old female hognose may only be 100 to 150 grams. They will not pass up the chance to pass on their genetics once the reach sexual maturity provided they are in good health. Last year I picked up a 125 gram female. She was 125 grams and gravid. Eggs were infertile but she passed them just fine. However, she almost did not recover from the ordeal. I actually need to force feed her (for me this is a last resort step before euthanization) for a couple of months.

With that being said, there are other things to worry about like what I mentioned about recovery. The egging process is very taxing on reptiles. It takes a lot of vitamin, mineral, calcium, and fat stores.

Egg binding is generally not actually associated with the actual size of the snake. Egg binding can affect any snake at any size. It has more to do with dehydration, lack of exercise, and vitamin and mineral deficiency.

Your statement is partially true. Yes, dehydration, lack of exercise and dietary deficiencies do come into play, especially when you see a full sized female having problems passing eggs. However, your assumption that the size of the snake does not play a factor remains questionable at best. While it has been stated that females of small proportions can successfully lay eggs, the fact remains that it is also excessively taxing on them and dangerous due to a higher factor of egg sizes being too large which also causes eggbinding.

The same holds true to humans. Young girls will start menstruating between ages 10-13 which dictates a functional reproductive system, however, it's a highly dangerous endeavor and the mortality rate is significantly higher than for an adult female of proper size and age.

in the wild, reptiles reach sexual maturity at a small size. In the wild, a 2 to 3 year old female hognose may only be 100 to 150 grams.

Can you substantiate your "facts" with actual data about the average sizes of known 2-3 year old wild hognoses? If not, it's merely conjecture on your part Gregg.

Last year I picked up a 125 gram female. She was 125 grams and gravid. Eggs were infertile but she passed them just fine. However, she almost did not recover from the ordeal.

It has been my experience that infertile eggs are sometimes (but not always) smaller than fertile eggs which could be due to any number of reasons.

The egging process is very taxing on reptiles. It takes a lot of vitamin, mineral, calcium, and fat stores.

This is true and it should be part of general husbandry practices. However, good husbandry practices also dictate that captive specimens should be of a more appropriate size than their wild cousins.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

IMO 100 gram females are definitely too small to try and breed responsibly. However I have to agree with Gregg on his reasons for why. Egg binding is also a minimal concern for me.
Troy, I have bred MANY, very small colubrids over the years and a small female producing large eggs is definitely the exception and not the rule. Most small females have small eggs. I have read and listened to a lot of breeders talk about their keeping offspring from females based on the “genetic” link from the adults to the babies as far as egg size or egg count goes. I agree that some of it is genetic but not all. I keep corns babies that come from females that lay big eggs because big eggs produce big babies which eat better for me but I have bred a ton of small corns and they almost always give me small eggs. These same females that throw small eggs get big and lay big eggs. I will still breed a corn at a small size but it is because they are so easy to put weight back on and they don’t seem to have the same problems recovering that other species have. I also have a couple of small hogs that I decided to breed because I knew they were going to slug out if I didn’t and they have had no problems depositing eggs. These small female hogs also laid very small eggs that year. I wouldn’t do it again because miniature baby hogs can’t even handle a newborn mouse and feeding them mouse tails until they were big enough was a huge pain!
The reason I don’t breed small female hogs (and most other species) is because of the recovery period. You will put them back at least a full year and most likely more in their normal growth rate plus you run much greater risks.
I have had several egg bound females over the years and I cannot think of one that was with a small female.
The next time you have an egg bound animal try this. If you know she’s bound and not just taking a break, dip her head in the water dish and watch her take a huge drink. Leave her over night and simply take your eggs out of the laying box the next morning. I have done this at least a dozen times with corns but have never had an egg bound hog to try it on. If this doesn’t work then I get out the needle.
This is my opinion and is based only on my experience. I have produced thousands and thousands of eggs and babies over the years. My breeding females currently consist of 46 corn snakes, 14 milks, 5 kings, 26 Kenyan sand boas, 10 hognose and approx 10 other misc species.

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Steve Perry
North Idaho.

Thank you for your input. I'm really happy to have so many people giving their thoughts on this. As a new breeder to hoggies, I don't really know that much (most of my knowledge is on the hoggies themselves, not breeding/egg-laying specifics) and I relish this chance to learn at least a little from people who have been doing this for a while.

And egg-binding is a subject I'm only familiar with with birds (cockatiels specifically).

I did have another question. I've noticed some snakes will lay duds without being with another snake. Is there something that causes that, or is it just random? (e.g. does not breeding during breeding season cause them to produce unfertilized eggs, or do they develop for other reasons?).
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3.3 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons

Are you certain she is a she and not a he? I don't want to offend just making sure.
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Steve Perry
North Idaho.

Yup! And no worries. It's a question I expect to be asked. But she's definitely a girl.
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3.3 Western Hognose
1.1 Ball Pythons

I have found several gravid females at 100-125g (while gravid) and recaptured them after oviposition and they weighted 80-90g.

-Chris
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Christopher E. Smith
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