Reptile & Amphibian Forums

repticon was in pasadena tx. this last w/e, it was a great show. i got to meet at least 1 forum member and his wife which is always cool, really nice folks to i may travel with repticon for some other state shows this summer meeting other forumfolk and such...
anyway i got a few kings....
(crappy pics)
cali's
lil striper actually got 2 that look identical

lil dash...

got 4 more true nigritus to add to the "mongrel" colony should be 2 more generations to get my w/s solid blackback mongrel

a 2011 F2 50/50 mongrel sayin hey

first of the mongrel breedings this year these are F1 50/50's l.g.fla.Xl.g.nigritus


got a few calkings that have been flirting as well as a few floridana i will try and snap some action pics as they occur for all the lamprophiles out there
hope everyone gets what they want with their snake breedings this season
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Awesome post Davis!!!!! You are the hybrid king(now that your buddy passed you the torch)!!!!!! I sure wish you could come out here to some Florida shows, can't wait to meet the real Davis(no keyboard). Please keep us posted on your hybrid WS obsoleta x MBK x floridana project. You should add some leucistic Texas rat to intensify the white. What are you planning on crossing with those cal kings?

"fighting knowledge with ignorance" keep it up buddy...........................................

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Gerard

"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

yeah i may do some florida shows this summer. do some fishin!
sorry but there is no obsoleta in the mongrels they are pure lampropeltis getula baby get over yourself.
,,,,,,,
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Hybrids, like I saif. Get over it.
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Gerard

"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Gerard,

Remember. A kingsnake is a kingsnake is a kingsnake. I allow hybrid discussion.

Hell I have paid damned good money for hybrids.

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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

oh gerard doesnt understand taxonomy that well yet. he doesnt mean no harm he just needs a hug i will give him one if we ever meet i may just plant a big wet sloppy kiss on him as well the poor lil guy.
getula to getula produces guess what? getula! they are not hybrids and technically would be called intergrades like your intergrade morelia
tomAto ... tomOto
potAto ... potOto
intergrade ... hybrid
see it just doesnt work
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Even Cindy thinks that animals that don't meet in the wild are hybrids not intergrades. You not being able to afford a matched pair is fine. Don't be ashamed of the crap you make, own it! I never said not to post it here but at least be honest to people and label them for what they are. Just like the carpet python breeders, the pure lines are very improtant and the animals are only as good as the breeders reputation. So don't lie, it speaks so much about your animals. See you in Daytona....

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Gerard

"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

lie? lie about what gerard? i dont lie.
afford a matched pair?!?!? where the heck did that come from?!?!!! do you really think i dont have matched pairs of everything i work with? get real dude.
not sure if i will make daytona but im gonna try, if i do make it i will be busy but will try to set aside a few minutes just for you
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>You not being able to afford a matched pair is fine. Don't be ashamed of the crap you make, own it!
>>
>>-----

Psst. Gerard, remember that whole thing in the terms of service about attacking a person and all? Thomas is a big boy and can handle it, but enough.

A king is a king is a king. If ya dont like his breeding projects SKIP THE POST.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

I love the project, it's just mislabled. I didn't attack him, I want to drink our differences away.
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Gerard

"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

no mongrelkings for you!
MISlabeled how gerard??? i am making a whitesided blackbacked getula. to do that i am using l.GETULA.nigritus and l.GETULA.fla i am up to F2's probably wont get what i want until F4 i am using the name MONGREL because there are 2 differant SSP. involved but make no mistake they are PURE TRUEBLUE GETULA. i have neither lied nor mislabeled anything! anyone who knows GETULA can tell thats exactly what they are. just like anyone who knows calligaster can tell SFMK are indeed a calligaster crossing them with other moles or even praries would NOT be creating a hybrid they would still be trueblue calligasters, but of course ethically any cross breeding between SP. or SSP. should be divuldged. i think its pretty clear that I indeed do divuldge such info as can be seen by the NAME i chose! leaves little doubt imho.
and yeah so rainer saw some obvious crosses with w/s rat X fla.kings along time a go, SO WHAT! that certainly does not mean ALL w/s floridana were created this way perhaps some where perhaps not. with proper line breeding the obseleta would quickly be absorbed by the getula anyway. at anyrate ive stated the history on mine many times here. and the grandfather w/s floridana used was/is indeed for all intents and purposes a trueblue l.GETULA.floridana as was/is the mother l.GETULA.nigritus.
,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I honestly don't know where to even begin with this nonsense, so I won't even try.............See, if it even made a LITTLE bit of sense there would be a chance to start somewhere, but there's not!..HAHAHA!!!

............WOOOOWWWW is all I can say..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

...
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>I love the project, it's just mislabled. I didn't attack him, I want to drink our differences away.
>>-----

Actually ya did. Which is why I am here saying a king is a king is a king. I dont come here to play remember
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

Well then, I'm sorry that you felt attacked Davis.
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Gerard

"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Personally I would not call Thomas' getula hybrids, assuming of course there is no obsoleta in the original white-sided floridana. I think it's possible they do have obsoleta but there's no proof so I'll just leave that aside for now.

In my opinion subspecific crosses that don't meet in the wild shouldn't be called intergrades either. I believe intergrade was a term originally used in field guides, science and taxonomy to exculsively describe animals that are naturally produced where two subspecies grade into one another. Therefore I would not even consider a manmade offspring of a floridana from the center of the range X a getula getula from the center of the range as an intergrade.

The only thing that I consider to be intergrades are animals from the portion of the range where intergrades naturally occur.

I call man-made subspecific crosses simply just that, crosses. I would accept man-made cross, subspecific cross or something of that sort, or even man-made intergrade since it does convey the meaning but IMHO to call anything that is exclusively man-made an intergrade is misleading and that is not the original intention of the word. The original intention of the term intergrade was, I believe, strictly to describe naturally occuring wild animals.

Hydrid is just a term that happens to work the same in captivity as it does in the wild so I think it's fine to call man-made hybrids hybrids. In fact wild hybrids are rare enough that I would use the term natural hybrid to describe them and just assume that anything simply labeled hybrid was probably man-made.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

I agree, it's only a intergrade if animals are used from the parts of the ranges that ovrelap. As for these snakes, and how this specific conversation ends up is all about personality differences. I like your take on it and I will use that new term(man made cross) from now on. However, they are still worthless man made crosses, which will always be my opinion. Talk to you later man.
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Gerard

"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

so aaron would you ASSUME a mongrelking is a cross/hybrid/intergrade/outergrade/mix/manmade snake of some sort???
see my honesty is being questioned as to my representation of what these are.
frankly i feel the name MONGREL leaves little doubt, but that is an ASSUMPTION on my part i suppose.
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"so aaron would you ASSUME a mongrelking is a cross/hybrid/intergrade/outergrade/mix/manmade snake of some sort???
see my honesty is being questioned as to my representation of what these are.
frankly i feel the name MONGREL leaves little doubt, but that is an ASSUMPTION on my part i suppose."

Well, if it was actually a proven fact that the white-sided floridana were created using obsoleta I would call them hybrids. But since that isn't a proven fact I would just call them crosses.

I didn't mean to single out your animals, I just thought this was a good opportunity to interject my thoughts on some of the terminology used to describe these animals. I think your idea for creating a white-sided snake with a solid black stripe down the back will produce a very cool looking snake. My comment about "assuming" wasn't directed at you. I only meant that manmade hybrids are much more common than wild hybrids so if someone found a wild hybrid they would probably mention that it was a wild snake, whereas in regular conversation if one said the word "hybrid" most people would assume they were talking about a manmade snake. I didn't mean to imply any judgement one way or the other to either one, I was just speaking of commonality.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

I wasn't arguing that or anything. I follow your rules and have no problem with them. I just wish people that make hybrids like the mongrels would be honest about them. People end up with stuff they thought was one thing only to find out it is a hybrid.
I love that carpet, I'm working on a zebra and I think one of those smoking Iran jaya jag hybrids that is in the classifieds. Maybe one of the Iran jaya granites too. The morphs for carpets are getting really cool.

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Gerard

"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I agree. If a snake is a man-made cross and the two subspecies they consist of would never EVER overlap naturally, then they are realistically considered man-made crosses or hybrids. The BS regarding the twisting of the definition to help justify when snake breeders constantly do this doesn't hold any real water. The definition of the term "intergrade" in the dictionary was never originally meant to apply to the recent numbers of hobby snake breeders that constantly toss them together so willy-nilly these days. The term "intergrade" historically was meant to apply for two subspecies that would naturally overlap and cross-breed in the wild.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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In zoology, intergradation is the way in which two distinct subspecies are connected via areas where populations are found that have the characteristics of both. There are two types of intergradation:

Primary intergradation:
Occurs in cases where two subspecies are connected via one or more intermediate populations, each of which are in turn intermediate to their adjacent populations and exhibit more or less the same amount of variability as any other population within the species. Adjacent populations and subspecies are subject to cline intergradation, and in these situations it is usually taken for granted that the clines are causally related (by selection) to environmental gradients.[1]

Secondary intergradation:
When contact between a geographically isolated subspecies is reestablished with the main body of the species or with another isolate subspecies, interbreeding takes place as long as the isolate has not yet evolved an effective set of isolating mechanisms. Consequently, a relatively distinct zone or belt of hybridization will develop depending on the degree of genetic and phenotypic difference that was achieved by the previously isolated subspecies.[1]

Davis' "intergradation" doesn't seem to fit anywhere here, unless he considers his snake room to be a natural geographic "cline" of some sort..LOL!

Even so-called amel "Sinaloans" you see advertised here and there are completely bogus when the breeders know full good and well the snakes were derived from previously being crossed with known L.t.nelsoni, NOT sinaloae x sinaloae.

Anyway, I don't have a problem if any type of king crosses are posted, but a whitesided Florida kingsnake bred to a Mexican Black kingsnake from the Sonaran desert of Mexico is a "getula/kingsnake", but it aint no intergrade in my book, it's a man-made cross/hybrid..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

sinaloans and nelsons are the same snake. ones from the north ones further south but they are the same animal. thanks for bringing that up as its a perfect example of taxonomist gone crazy. like gerards SMFK are calligaster and your OBX are getula just like my mongrels are getula no better no worse.
get a grip man!
,,,,,,,
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

HAHAHAHAHHA!!!!!!........HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

Yeah, when all of them are the "same" to you, it's tough for there to be any differences I guess. LOL!!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

...
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

" sinaloans and nelsons are the same snake. ones from the north ones further south but they are the same animal. thanks for bringing that up as its a perfect example of taxonomist gone crazy. "

Thomas, where are you getting your information??

Seriously?? What you said does not make sense, and here is why.

Sinaloans and Nelsoni ARE NOT the same snake. Seriously, what a bizarre statement to make.

How are they the same animal? How would them scientifically being different, in many characterstics and aspects, be an example of the opinion of a taxonomist going crazy?

Please read about the differences, thus NOT making them the same animals:

Sinaloans: First black ring forms a V shaped pattern on the throat, it being a connected ring.
Nelsons: First black ring is usually either very narrow and connects across the throat, not being a V shaped pattern, or it is incompete.

Sinaloans: Red dorsal rings average around 10-16, give or take.
Nelsons: Red dorsal rings are much more, giving an average around 13-18, give or take.

Sinaloans: Average length is longer than Nelsons, being around 4 feet or son.
Nelsons: Average length is usually 3 feet or more.

To say that they are the same animal does not make sense, and is about the same as saying all gopher snakes and bull snakes are the same.

If you do not want to learn about the animals, then why are you in the hobby?

Please give this some thought, as making blanket statements saying Sinaloae and Nelsoni are the same is just bizarre.

Thanks my friend!

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Genesis 1:1

you are bizzare billy.
i am allowed to state my opinion, this is an opinion ive based on MY 35yrs of observing these animals not some book that tells me whats what, not only will i state it i will stand by it, and if you dont like it or agree thats fine but dont think you are any better than i or can ask me silly questions like you are superior in any way i certainly dont do that. its called mutual respect, agree to disagree. the puritan snake nazi crowd takes it way WAY WAY to far.
IMHO sinaloans and nelsons are the same snake ALL the traits you listed can be bred for from either suppossed ssp.
phenotype alone does not make a ssp. neither should it.
look on the map where these 2 suppossed SSP. are to each other its a pretty small area, but with envireomental differances enough to cause the phenotype to slightly change, like with splendida and holbrooki. IMHO this alone should not warrant SSP. status.
this puritan attitude that if you purposefully breed a nelson phenotype to a sinaloan pheno is creating a mutt or is damaging in anyway to the "hobby" is whats totally bizzare and rediculous.
it is taxonomy gone CRAZY as well as "hobbiest" interpretation of said taxon.
imho there are MANY examples like....
IMHO
l.G.californiae
,,,,IS,,,,
l.G.splendida
,,,,IS,,,,
l.G. nigritus, yumensis etc.
,,,,IS,,,,
l.G.holbrooki
,,,,IS,,,,
l.G.nigra
,,,,IS,,,,
l.G.goini
,,,,IS,,,,
l.G.Getula
,,,,IS,,,,
l.G.sticticeps
,,,,IS,,,,,
l.G.floridana

do you see a pattern?

see to me getula IS getula IS getula.

see how i state "in my humble opinion" IMHO

clades
ancient races
isolated pops
genotypes

right on im digging all that too, i currently have and have had many locale projects with these ssp. but i also enjoy crossing ssp. this is actually what has proven to me that getula is indeed getula and so on and for the most part try to respectfully just agree to disagree, but i will voice and stand by my opinion.

do you actually feel me stating that i dont agree with current taxon classsification standards especially regarding the getula group as well as much of the triangulum, hell most COLUBRIDS is somehow a threat? so much so that you feel the need to pop in and talk down to me???
or that i am inferior in some way because of stating my opinion???
IF you respond please just keep your answer to my questions.

,,,,,,,,thomas davis

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas,

You not agreeing with scientific fact is not a threat, but shows laziness in learning. If you really have 35 years in observing, you would completely confirm the scientific facts I just stated in my last post.

You obviously downplay science in order to make you feel better about hybridizing, and not wanting to learn. Anyone who knows really knows anything about kings or milks can see that. You have not been able to refute one thing I just stated.

I am not saying you are inferior at all. I am just saying that with your words, you simply do not care for learning, and that plays a part in how your portray yourself in caring about snakes as a whole. Your attitude really is immature, and it does seem that you really do not understand snakes and their scientific attributes and characteristics.

I do have mutual respect. We agree to disagree. Funny thing is, how you abuse the term Nazi. You really have to stop doing that. That is disrespectful to those whom have suffered via Nazi bigotry and hatred. That alone shows incredible immaturity on your part.

Take care!
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Genesis 1:1

>>>Thomas,

You not agreeing with scientific fact is not a threat, but shows laziness in learning. If you really have 35 years in observing, you would completely confirm the scientific facts I just stated in my last post.

>ok billy laziness??? you really go too far dude scientific facts???!!! is that what you call it.HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA its taxonomy gone CRAZY. IF I REALLY HAVE 35YRS IN OBSERVING??? you really ENJOY acting mean and tough on these forums billy, your mother must be SO proud.

>>>You obviously downplay science in order to make you feel better about hybridizing, and not wanting to learn. Anyone who knows really knows anything about kings or milks can see that. You have not been able to refute one thing I just stated.

>feel better about hybridizing???!!!??? WTF!!! do you mean? anyone who really knows anything about kings and milks??? dude you really think your clever with your keyboard bravado. THERE IS NOTHING TO REFUTE!

>>>I am not saying you are inferior at all. I am just saying that with your words, you simply do not care for learning, and that plays a part in how your portray yourself in caring about snakes as a whole. Your attitude really is immature, and it does seem that you really do not understand snakes and their scientific attributes and characteristics.

>HYPOCRITE plain and simple. and you wanna talk about MY attitude billy? i understand the scientific attributes and characteristics just fine billy ive read all the same books you have as most ALL of us have as well as having 35yrs of keeping experience UNDER MY BELT YET you wanna talk down to me like you are right and i am wrong... PATHETIC!

>>>I do have mutual respect. We agree to disagree. Funny thing is, how you abuse the term Nazi. You really have to stop doing that. That is disrespectful to those whom have suffered via Nazi bigotry and hatred. That alone shows incredible immaturity on your part.

Take care!
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Genesis 1:1

>there is NOTHING funny about NAZIS. you have NO respect for yourself, anyone or anything as can be seen by the way you talk on this forum.

one more thing billy....

GETULA IS GETULA IS GETULA IS GETULA

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas,

Now, tell me, how do I go too far?
You really gotta stop throwing terms towards people who disagree with you. Mean and tough? I am not acting mean and tough. All I am doing is stating some facts, and you can't even refute one thing. You bringing my mother into this shows exactly the lack of maturity you show.
Yes, you are right. There is nothing to refute. You play this act of " getula is getula is getula, " without incorporating the subspecies you are mixing up and destroying.
You throw out the word " hypocrite " a lot. Now, please tell me in specific detail, how am I being a hypocrite? You state this 35 year experience. No one that actually has this much experience would be saying the things you say.
If there is nothing funny about Nazis, then why do you loosely throw out the term towards those who disagree with you?
How do I have no respect for myself, as you state?
How do I have no respect? See...you simply can not tolerate differences in opinion. Because of this, you throw out terms, " hypocrite " and " no respect " but yet, you can not explain exactly the context.
Thomas, please stop. Please stop throwing out terms you are not using properly towards those who have differing opinions. If you can not handle scientific fact, just be honest and say so.
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Genesis 1:1

you know EXACTLY what you do billy. we will talk about it face to face.

,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas, it is clear you can not handle different opinions.
Thanks and take care!
-----
Genesis 1:1

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA
you have done nothing but ATTACK my opinion, my character, my knowledge base all for simply stating my opinion billy!
this has gone W A Y beyond opinions billy.
me and you will just talk this out next time we see one another.

that is all.

,,,,,,,,
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"Please read about the differences, thus NOT making them the same animals"

Key word there is READ, which is why he says he doesn't follow what real EXPERTS put in books.

Hence his, "fighting knowledge with ignorance" slogan.

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Gerard

"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I'm not taking any sides as I normally don't........but why does this always get so out of hand......anyone can post their opinions here or anywhere on the Internet......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

That's a good question and statement. I guess it is all about who stops first, since I am the bigger man, I will stop now.
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Gerard

"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

It gets out of hand because certain individuals call others names and say things that literally do not make sense, scientifically, in regards to our beloved snakes.

Opinions is one thing. Not able to refute fact is another, much less, trolling, name calling, and the like.
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Genesis 1:1

>>It gets out of hand because certain individuals call others names and say things that literally do not make sense, scientifically, in regards to our beloved snakes.
>>
>>Opinions is one thing. Not able to refute fact is another, much less, trolling, name calling, and the like.

I see name calling from all parties involved....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I agree. Name calling is not cool.
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Genesis 1:1

Thomas *IS* honest that he makes em. In fact he calls them mongrels in the header.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

Yes, he called them intergrades though. I am not complaining about them being here, of him making them or of him. I just like to point out that error when he doesn't say it right. This is a place for learning. He always has smart comments and insults to hand out but feels threatened when someone throws some his way. Post away I say, I love pictures, but they are by your standards hybrids and if he doest care why not call them what they are? There's no reason to hide the fact when they are not illegal. Do I act like a smart ass towards him? Not anymore than he does to me or anyone else.
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Gerard

"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

...

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

Nice. Always like seeing Cal kings.
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>>repticon was in pasadena tx. this last w/e, it was a great show. i got to meet at least 1 forum member and his wife which is always cool, really nice folks to i may travel with repticon for some other state shows this summer meeting other forumfolk and such...

Gee, I hear Repticon is coming to IL. Once they schedule it, I am planning on going if I am in town. Boy, I am gonna give you a boot to the patoot.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

Boy, I am gonna give you a boot to the patoot.
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promise??? i can hardly wait!

,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I always had a soft spot for amel Cal kings with very little pattern, like stripers with virtually no side pattern. Like yours. Very nice.

thanks, and i agree the clean sides ROCK!

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

It was nice meeting you on Sunday. I'll probably see you again at the June repticon. Hopefully there will be a better selection of kings then. I didn't pick up anything new this weekend, at least not any snakes. We got a chameleon for my step-daughter.

it was a pleasure meeting you and your wife. june will have a better selection, also the ETHS show in sept. thats our BIG show in e.tx. good luck with the cham

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com