Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I love the tri-color of the milk snakes, or the tangerine phase of the Honduran. I've often seen and heard repeated that the Honduran is the largest variety commonly found in the pet trade. Is there any truth to this?
I ask because the kind folks on this forum shared this chart:http://www.pitt.edu/~mcs2/herp/Lampropeltis.html and it shows many to be larger than the Honduran, such as the Ecuadoran, Andean, Guatemalan and Atlantic Central American Milksnake. The other longer snakes listed I don't think would be confused with a Honduran.

If the Honduran is the largest commonly found in the pet trade, what is a reasonable average length?

Also, could you comfortably keep a 5-6 ft milk snake in the exo-terra medium-low tank?
http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products...ium_medium.php

I basically want a milk snake that is longer than 3-4 feet.

Sorry 'bout that. Here is the link
This is the Exo-terra Link

the Honduran is the largest variety commonly found in the pet trade

I think the key words in that statement are "commonly found"... Hondurans are by far the most popular Milk Snake. That, in large part, is due to the amazing variety of colors/morphs/patterns/etc you can get them in... one of the other subspecies you mention (Ecuadoran Milk Snake) doesn't even seem to exist in the pet trade, nobody seems to have one. The Guatemalan Milk Snake... only 4 people in the USA are known to have them... the Andean and Atlantic Central are easy enough to come by but are not (thankfully) available in the wide variety of colors/patterns/morphs of the Hondos so are not as popular as they are.

Trying to keep it somewhat short... you like the Hondo... get one... with proper care and feeding they will easily get to the 3-4 feet you want... 5 ft plus would be more likely. It's the only one of the subspecies you mention that is offered in "eye popping" colors.

As far as the Exo Terra... I wouldn't keep an adult Hondo in something only 24" long but that's just me.

Gerry

I agree with Gerry, a 24 inch tank is pretty small for a 5 foot snake, even though they prefer to spend most of their time coiled up in a much smaller hide, it should have room to stretch when it needs to ...and also get away from its feces.
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See all my snakes at SerpenTrack.com

One of the 'rules of thumb' I've heard is that the square foot of the tank doubled is the maximum allowable size for a snake. So the tank I suggested is 2 ft x 1.5 ft. So that area doubled would be 6 ft.

I have a room for a normal old 20L, which is 30" x 12" and that area doubled is 5ft.

So I figured the "bigger" tank would be better suited for for a Hondo.

Are you trying to say the 20L would be better because its longer?

I'm not going to buy something I don't have the room for.

I've heard of that "rule of thumb"... I've also heard that a 20gal long is the minimum size for an adult Hondo... I've also heard that a 24 x 48 cage is the minimum for an adult Hondo... great thing about the internet and the opinions you can find there is if you look long enough you will find exactly what you want to hear.

My personal opinion... I prefer an enclosure that has a length and depth roughly equal to the length I expect of the adult snake... something that allows the snake to move around in without having to crawl over itself as it does... but that's just me.

If the only two choices for cages are the ones you mention I'd go with the 20 long.

Gerry

I prefer an enclosure that has a length and depth roughly equal to the length I expect of the adult snake.

Should I read this to mean a 4ft snake needs a tank 4ft x 4ft?

If the length depth should eaqual the length of the snake, than either toe 20L or the Exo-terra fits the bill.
30 12=42
24 18=42

In both cases however then we're talking about a 3.5 ft snake, which isn't nearly large enough for a Hondo. Maybe a Nelson's, which isn't exactly what I want.

Generally, my philosophy is that more room is better, but I also believe in diminishing return. A 4ft snake in a walk-in closet sized tank will only be marginally better than one in a 72 gallon tank.

Do the enlarged size requirements suggested for a Hondo have much to do with the temperment of the snake? Would a 4 ft milk snake need a larger tank than a 4ft corn snake for any reason?

I was looking at Taiwan Beauty snakes, and I guess because they're super active and like to pace, even they need a much larger tank than the 'rules of thumbs' suggest.

Sorry for all the questions. Better to know before making a purchse

4ft x 4ft cage is not what I meant... my enclosures are 48" long, 16" deep or roughly 5 1/2 ft... about what I expect my snakes to be as adults. Again that is my preference... can you get by with less, sure, lots of people do. That size allows me to place an UTH at one end of the cage and still have better than half the enclosure "unheated". Not too long ago a posted a picture (along with a long winded commentary ) of the latest cages I made... the link below is to that thread so you can see a picture of what I mean... each enclosure is 48" x 16" inside.

The larger space size has nothing to do with a hondo's temperament... they like hiding, chilling out and doing nothing, most of the time they won't even use much of the available space... but with the size enclosures I prefer a snake the size of a hondo can comfortably put itself at the heated side or at the unheated side, move around without tripping over itself and just as important allows me to add a few fake plants and driftwood to dress it up some and still allow plenty of room for the snake.

Gerry
Link

I appreciate the info.

I'm not sure what I'll end up with. What might end up happening is moving one of my corns to smaller enclosure anticipating a milk needing something bigger. Both my corns are male and should stay pretty small.

It comes down to money, patience, and what I have room for, plus of course whatever my wife says.

Well don't give up on having a Hondo... all I've said is that I think the 20gal long is too small for an adult Hondo and that I prefer something in the 4ft range... please note the "I prefer" part of that statement.

A friend of mine keeps his adult Black Milks and Hondos in what I believe are 36" Neodesha enclosures (36w x 18h x 19d. All of his adults were fine, big, healthy animals. Having seen his set-ups I can also say they were perfectly adequate for those adults.

Bottom line is you don't need what I prefer... I think you just need something more than a 20gal long.

Gerry

I haven't exactly given up on a Hondo, but I do have certain limitations.

I'm a student at the University of Florida and I live in a small apartment. Trying to find space for bigger tanks is difficult. I have a 3-shelf adjustable metal shelving unit which is nice. Looks something like this: www.target.com/p/Whitmor-Supreme-3-Tier-Shelving-Black/-/A-13252529#?lnk=sc_qi_detailbutton

But mine is 18" deep. BUT, here is the deal, the stupid poles eat up enough space for the interior shelves that you can't put anything that is 36" x 18" in there. I could go 36" long, but no more than about 14" deep. Or I could go 18" deep, but no more tahn 32" long.

Height is another issue. I could fit more on it if I had front opening cage. As it is right now, I have a Zilla 20L near the bottom and then about 10" of head room between it and the top shelf - that's so I can actually get in and out of the tank. If I had the Exo-terra cage or any other front door tank, I could drop the top shelf right down on top of the tank and put the 20L on the top shelf.

I could even put on the Exo-terra tank that is 18" or 24" tall.

If somebody made a 32" x 18" or a 36" x 14" tank that opens on the front I'd be happy as a clam.

I thought about Vision cages Model # 124, but the Exo-terra actually has more floor space. It's not as long, but overall its bigger...and cheaper!
www.visionproducts.us/htm7/cages.html

Plus, being a student means I have almost no money. I'll save and get what it takes, but if it means buying an expensive custom built cage, I might do better just to find a smaller snake, or be happy with the ones I already have.

Making the assumption you're going to get your hondo as a hatchling... the 20gal would be adequate for 2 years anyway. I have a couple of polyzona (one of the other large milks) that aren't quite 1 1/2 years old yet... though I haven't measured them lately I'd guess they're pushing 40"... even with my preference for larger enclosures I'd be all right with keeping them in a 20gal long if need be.

We've been talking adult snake sizes... that 20gal would be fine for a couple of years... plenty of time to work out your limited space issues.

Gerry

Thanks gerryg for the info. I've got at least 3 years left if not 4 for school. If I'm getting a Hondo, or anything on the larger end of the spectrum, I need to make sure I have room in the apartment I'm in now because I don't see the wife and I moving anytime soon.

I'm not giving up on a Hondo, I'm just going to wait and see how things pan out.

I don't know what year of school you're in, or whether you're planning to go on to med school or something. But if you're within a couple years of graduation (and moving) why not get a 2012 hatchling honduran later this summer? it'll require a smaller cage. (I share the view that the sizes you are able to provide are too small for adult hondos, and I have considerable experience with them, as do others here). Second, resist the temptation to "power feed"--don't feed aggressively to maximize growth, feed instead to sustain good health and no more. Your snake might be 24-28" at a year of age, and 3-4' after two years. If, by that time you're in a position to provide larger housing, then this might offer you a way to get the animals you want. Are you dis-served if they take 4 or 5 years to get "big" instead of 2?
JUst an idea.

I'm a 1st year PhD student, and so we're looking at another 3-4 years at least. I should take qualifying exams next year, a dissertation proposal, then at least a year of research, and then a year for dissertaion writing.

I can keep a Hondo small for a couple of years, but I'm not going to be done in a couple of years. I'm thinking maybe a nice Sinaloan...

Who knows. we'll see how funding works, what my wife finds interesting, etc. I'm just learning about options right now.

It started with a Blue beauty snake, then an Amazon tree boa, and then on to a milk snake. I am just exploring and seeing what my options are.

I agree with everything gerry said. Hondurans are the largest milks commonly found in the pet industry - no question about it. Just because there's a maximun size recorded, doesn't mean the snakes usually get to that size. Very few people have seen a 6 six foot Corn Snake or a 8 foor plus Black Rat Snake. In most cases these snakes are about half that size.

In my opinion a 20 gallon long is too small. I've been keeping and breeding Hondurans for more than 20 years. I think somewhere around 4 square feet of floor space is good for a large adult. If you're using a fish tank, a 40 gallon is a good size.

Tim

Third Eye Herp