Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hello, just looking for some opinions/feedback concerning weights/growth. i have been looking at ads for females the past couple weeks, specifically a pied. the weights for 2011's have me a little puzzled and frustrated....

i have seen numerous ads that say something to the effect of "2011 female, eats great, 150 grams empty" or 200g, or even a whopping 250grams. i'll inquire about the hatch date and they will be aprox 8 months!

when it comes to bp's i'm not an expert but this just doesn't seem quite right. i have 3 2011's and they are all more than twice that. i feed 1 appropriate size rat every 5-7 days

seems like if a bp's is only 200g in 8 or nine months it would take about 10 yrs to get to breedable size. sooooo.... i'm thinking there are 2 possibilities.

1) they are actually problematic feeders

or

2) the breeders are just skimping on feeders trying to save a few bucks.

i have gone to more than 1 show and seen yearlings that look like hatchlings. i won't name names. it always just sits wrong with me.

any idea how these stunted bp's overall growth will be effected? will they still grow to their full potential?

i guess i will just stick with buying hatchlings and raising them myself. i actually enjoy raising them actually this is just something that chaps my butt. i used to be into pitts and kings and i would see this fairly often over the years there as well. it kind of saddens my heart to see that, by all apearences, for some it's all about the money. just my 2 cents...

jonathan

What did they weigh when they hatched, 30g? 90g?

An eight month old born at 30-40g isn't doing too bad if he's now 250g.

Also, with my babies, I find that they go through faster growth spurts as soon as i can move them up to a larger food item. I honestly dont think it takes very long to get them up to 500g once they can eat smaller rats/rat weans at 250g.

And of course , we are talking about Balls, problem feeding seems to go with the territory

But who knows? Every breeder/keeper does things differently. One might purposely try to not overfeed, and one might be skimping on costs or time.

Honestly, I think it has to do with food items.
I have some babies that eat a weaned mouse weekly and are around the 200-250 gram mark. I have some babies that were born at the same time that eat rat pups...and are 100-150 grams larger.

Same age...massive weight difference, due to food items.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

www.youtube.com/reptilenexus

Eating habits can vary greatly with animals. I have snakes that will eat every time, without fail...in shed, not in shed...

and there are animals who will only willingly eat every 2 weeks.
Or they will skip a meal if in shed.

Every snake is different. I mean, if I offer a snake 4 meals a month, and it eats 3 of said meals, I wouldn't call it a "troubled feeder"...
-----
"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

www.youtube.com/reptilenexus

It's about the size of the food.

I think it takes longer to get a 60g hatchling to 100g, than it does to get a 200g to 300g. Seems to me that they like to stop at 700g anyways. may be there's some hormones that come into play at that size?

unfortunately my female het pied and cinnamon agree with you on this one > stupid girls hit "the wall" and didn't make weight this season
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www.bamreptiles.webs.com
www.facebook.com/bamreptiles

The answer is this:

The breeders are doing minimal feeding! Period!

There is no reason an 8 month old ball python should be 200 grams. I don't care if it's a mouser, picky eater, etc.

and if there are any problems with the animals, than shame on the breeder trying to off load it, and not mention the problems in the add !!!

If it's 8 months old and under 500 grams, I wouldn't touch it.
that's just me.

Karl

i try to respect everyone's point of view. i can see a couple valid points here such as...

kingofspades, yes, i agree that food size matters. did you see the youtube video about the big bin breeder (forgot who) that did a study on size/growth rates? very interesting! i now try to give them a little larger size prey

BUT if an 8 month old bp is still only taking a small mouse and 200 g, i would consider it a problem feeder. IMO if nothing else than for the fact that how long would it take to get it to breeding size at that rate? would it be one of the ones i see advertised as a 2010, 2 yrs old, and a whopping 600g?

violetdixie, you mentioned a bp that eats only every other time offered. you wouldn't consider it a problem feeder?

i kind of agree with karl on this one :/

i'm just a hobbyist. i have and always will do it for the love of the hobby and not the money

a 200g 8 month old bp is not something that i am going to invest in and add to the collection. i have seen many yearlings at shows over the years that are barely bigger than hatchlings. i just shake my head, and keep walking......

but its ok.

Anyways, I dont think things are so black and white. I dont think its always the case that the breeder is at fault. What would you think of a breeder who had both types (a 200g 8mo and a 700g 8 mo)? Did that breeder decide to treat only some of the babies well, and starve the rest? Is any breeder out there with an underweight bp, an irresponsible breeder?

All animals are a risk and a gamble... A seller should disclose any problems, but its up to a buyer to take the risk. A 700g 8 mo. old could stop feeding.

A seller with an 8 mo. old at 200g is also not necessarily lying if they say that the animal is eating great, and its true that the animal is NOW eating great, right?
btw, I also wouldnt buy the 200g 8 month old unless it was a morph that I was in LOVE with, and at a discount I could afford . But that would be the risk I would take.

I looked on youtube, & couldnt find the video. I would love a link!

Also, a solution could be to just wait on a particular BP. If the seller says it's feeding great, and it doesn't sell after a month or two, then it should have put on an acceptable amount of weight.

violet dixie, oops! the 2 week comment was in kingofspade's post. my apologies

it was brian from bhb that made the video and did the feeding experiment on [ban] tv. he actually did it with corns, but the results were very interesting, imo.

toshamc, i'm not sure that i agree with that. i have actually heard just the opposite about wild caught yearlings coming in at a large size compared to a lot of captive bred ones. i just can't see a snake in the wild that is hungry turning down a meal because it hasn't been a week. just my 2 cents

jonathan

my first reply message had a note of (banned) pop up when i tried to post it. grr... that is rediculous. i was just trying to mention a resource for some good info

violetdixie, my bad, the 2 week comment was in kingofspade's post. i apologize

the video of the feeding experiment is by brian of b h b. i think i will get banned if i get any more specific. it is very informative.

toshamc, i don't agree. i can't see a wild bp that has the instinct and desire to turn away from a meal because it hasn't been a week. i agree about not overfeeding. there is a big difference though. i have a female 8 month old ax het snow that is 36" and 800g from feeding every 5 days. she is well proportioned and there is no skin between scales. she is very active and healthy. i think her case might have a major contributing factor of genetics because my female pied is 6 inches shorter and 150g lighter. still, it's just hard for me to accept a 200g 8 month old as healthy and a good eater. i agree that the breeder is not the only factor though.
jonathan

Karl - ever have a slow starter?

I hatched out a male yb firefly last September. He ate once and then didn't eat for 4-5 months. I force fed him a few times to kepp him going and was ready to give up. Then a light bulb must have gone on and he started eating and hasn't refused a meal since. Now he is a bit over 300gms and starting to get interested in the ladies. He may yet mate this season....

Never say never.......

Hi Jen,

yes i have had plenty of slow starters. But 200grams in 8 months time is a problem in my book.

there are a lot of variables that can make that happen.

I am just not comfortable purchasing an 8 month old 200 gram animal is all

Karl

Ball Pythons by nature do not require a 3-5 day feeding schedule as some people in this business/hobby tend to do especially with babies. By nature they are not supposed to be breeding size in their first year this is something the business has pushed to be able to make more money.

That being said if you are selling to people that are breeders and are looking to get big fat snakes for faster breeding purposes then it would probably be in your best interest to sell big fat snakes as opposed to maintenance fed snakes. But it's not a sign of poor keeping if a seller chooses to feed less frequently as long as the snake is maintaining a good body weight.

Know the difference between a fat snake, a healthy snake and a emaciated snake because there really is no rule as to what they should weigh.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

nihil facimus sed id bene facimus