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Hey guys, I have another question.
What size would you expect a 2011 Brooks x chain kingsnake to be with regular feeding? How about just a plain ole' chain king?
They both were hatched late august and started feeding in september.
Also, how do you feed your kings? Power feeding, starting them slow, how do you normally feed them?
you cannot "powerfeed" a growing baby king the term just doesnt apply with kings.
i feed baby growing kings every 3-4 days. adult 4ft. and up kings get fed weekly here.
with proper support baby kings (getula) will hit 3ft. range in a year to 18months.
my babies from last august are 20-22 inch range now.
you want to get them onto fz asap pinkies just dont have that much nutrition.
good luck
,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
Okay. Mine are on small hoppers and are 20 inches in length. My female is growing kinda slow though, she is around 17 inches and on fuzzies. Would you consider that about right, since they were all born in late august?
sure, they are all individuals and growth rates will show that. imho males do grow a lil faster than females. i would not worry if they are both eating. she very well may catch up and exceed his growth rate this year. feed them as much as they will eat every 3-4 days you do not have to worry about obesity with growing getula. how they are fed now while the bulk of their growing is being done will determine how they turn out as adults.
its all about support.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
While they are young and growing, they will certainly utilize those calories into growing well. However depending on what the individual sexes and what they are going to be used for when they become more mature and full grown (e.g.breeders or simple pets), you need to consider and look at their body weight to determine what is best. Skinny isn't good, and neither is obesity....both of which are all possibilities. You have to consider all of the factors, and there are quite a few. If your intent is to make as many eggs as possible from a female, she needs very good body weight and a higher caloric intake. By the same token, an adult male won't need as much food to keep an optimum body weight. It's all about using some good common sense and see what the individual snakes need when they become more mature, not about one constant general rule without paying attention and noticing things.
Now when they are babies and juveniles, there is no problem whatsoever feeding them very substantial meals every three to four days, and they do very well with that when given the conditions to properly digest those meals. Kings have a very high metabolism and will process their food at a higher rate than some others do. but for example if you see your adult male getting fat and the skin between his scales showing, and fat wrinkles when he bends in a coil you will know it is taking in too much. It's just as simple as that really. When they become larger and mature, keep all this in mind and judge things accordingly to what they look like, how they act, and how they respond to their environment.
It sounds like yours are doing fine. I feed floridana youngsters two of whatever they can compress down their tiny heads and necks every three to four days, and they grow like weeds. Just pay attention to the above things I mentioned later on and what they are going to be used for to keep an optimum body weight.
.........That is my personal opinion..
~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing" 
serpentinespecialties.webs.com
"some are just born to troll and roll"
Very good post Doug!!! I could not agree more!
Powerfeeding will doing nothing but produce fat, unhealthy snakes, especially kings ( which I have seen a lot of, in terms of fat captives ), but like Doug said, when fed under the right conditions, and using common sense, you can not go wrong.
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Genesis 1:1
>>Very good post Doug!!! I could not agree more!
>>Powerfeeding will doing nothing but produce fat, unhealthy snakes, especially kings ( which I have seen a lot of, in terms of fat captives ), but like Doug said, when fed under the right conditions, and using common sense, you can not go wrong.
I agree....Doug made a great reply.....but he did not say what you stated....
He did not say that powerfeeding will do nothing but create fat.....
Powerfeeding does not exist if husbandry is optimal.....Doug said it best when he stated that growing snakes do well if fed as large a meal as possible every 3 to 4 days......that is typically the time it takes them to digest a meal and kick in their need for more calories.....
An adult snake eats larger prey that takes longer to digest and they aren't using this caloric intake to grow but rather to sustain.....
This duration is usually 5 to 7 days but all snakes are individuals...
Please explain to me what powerfeeding is by your definition Billy....is feeding a large meal daily powerfeeding? None of my snakes will eat that much.... They won't eat when full.....how do you powerfeed? I really don't understand how it is possible..... If you all are seeing obese snakes crank the hot spot up....or breed them.....lol
If one learns when to feed then they are feeding their snakes when they are hungry.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
I know that Doug didn't use the term powerfeeding. I did.
Doug did mention about snakes getting fat, by feeding too much, which, in itself, is not a good thing and CAN be powerfeeding. It does exist, I know of it, I have seen it, I have had vets complain to me about such acts, and I have seen many fat snakes, mostly kings, from feeding as much as the keeper thinks.
People say powerfeeding doesn't exist, because, more than likely, they themselves powerfeed. It is called denial, IMO. Cramming as much food down the snake as it will take, as often as possible, to get them to breed as quick as possible ( my definition of powerfeeding ) is also not realistic when compared to how much they do eat in nature. It is just that simple. Feeding once a week, or every 3-4 days, is still a lot more than what they would be getting in nature. In nature, it is all about opportunity. It captivity, it is all about when the breeder wants to thaw out rodents. Captive conditions are nowhere near, nor will they ever be, optimal, compared to actual nature, so the possibility of all that feeding can and does produce fat snakes. Not in every instance, of course, but it can, has, and does happen. After all, living in a tub, in a room that has ambient temps or in a cage with one side having a heat source is still nowhere near " natural ". It is what it is, a tub with a heat source or a room with ambient temps..haha!!! Not actually the perfect defintion of unlimited space and thermoregulation, as what nature has to offer.
The key is:
Good weight.
Good muscle tone.
Healthy diet and feeding regimen for that particular snake.
Age and maturity.
Combine all of that, and you can and will get great results, and a snake that lives a long, long time. Just my opinion.
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Genesis 1:1
I believe some keeper's captive conditions are superior to wild conditions....
Thus these animals thrive rather than just live....
Btw....most vets have no idea how I keep my animals...
And there is a common misconception that overfeeding, overbreeding, breeding too young and raising up fast will somehow cause a snake to be unhealthy.....
Maybe the misconceptions are from those that do not have optimal husbandry conditions.....
I have many animals that are in their teens and twenties....
None are obese. None gave become egg bound. None have had their growth or life stunted.
I guess I'm not feeding enough......lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
" And there is a common misconception that overfeeding, overbreeding, breeding too young and raising up fast will somehow cause a snake to be unhealthy..... "
Trust me. It sure is not a misconception. Stating that it is misconception is simply denial, simply put. I have seen and know of the proof, along with every breeder I know that has been breeding since the 70s and 80s on up, and also including herpers and vets I know that have degrees in reptile biology.
" Maybe the misconceptions are from those that do not have optimal husbandry conditions..... "
Nope. Captive conditions can be optimal in so many different ways. Thru my own experience, and those whom I know that not only have bred and hatched out more snakes than anyone on here, have had much success in so many ways with different viewpoints of keeping.
" I have many animals that are in their teens and twenties....
None are obese. None gave become egg bound. None have had their growth or life stunted. "
Cool! So have I!
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Genesis 1:1
Powerfeeding is a misnomer of terms.
Frist of all here are are talking about kingsnakes. Specifically the eastern variety which are predominatly snake eaters in the wild. So their system can handle LARGE meals. We are not making blanket statements about boas, pythons ect. Which do accumilate fatty deposits around the ovum. But with egg laying eastern kingsnakes. Well mine triple clucth and some I breeders in my collection are going on their 20th year.
If you are brumating and beeding you snakes it is impossible to overfeed them..
Those breaks inbetween and producing eggs, Fasting during brumation. heck you HAVE TO feed them as much as they will eat.
IF YOU ALLOW THEM TO DO WHAT THEY WANT. IF YOY ALLOW THEM TO BREED. ..WHEN THEY WANT TO BREED. AND EAT...by giving CHOICES. You are on the right path to being what we call in herpetoculture successful. That is how success in measured in captivit AND in nature!!!!!
If you think YOU are breeding snakes by placing a male in a cage once a year (when YOU think the female is ovulating) and then worrying about stress on the snake being bred to often and being bred to young is false.
So the question what are optimum conditions in keeping eastern kings in captivity. Well I metioned a couple above.
So explain why female ovulates when she does?
It is because she has ample calories to produce follicles? So by withholding caloric intake you stress the snake and cause it to shut down. just as in human females who are staving themselves or have to low a bodyfat.
So go ahead and starve your snakes. Is it natural... absolutly not! Will it hurt them? Probably not. They will live.
Some think.. THINK they control everything a snake does and use the term that they do things diferently with success. They say things like "I am breeding my snakes" But really it is the snakes doing the breeding if you allow them to. That is how we measure success.
One has to use common sense here. You are putting the snakes into a box. How you keep you art is your business. But is it good or sensible advice? Is it lodgical? I think not.
As far as your statement Billy about other old time breeders keeping snakes that get eggs bound and /or don't live long. Well, how are those breeders keeping them? Like you do?
Seems to me that is the recipe you are following. ...No choices, heated rooms, forced brumation, unbonded animals. And oh ya, making sure they don't get fat. LOL!
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>>Trust me. It sure is not a misconception. Stating that it is misconception is simply denial, simply put.
Simply put in your mind.....I really hope that you are not insinuating that I am denial about my snakes.... I would put my OCD style of husbandry and the health of my animals up against anyone's...... Especially those breeders from the 70s and 80s.... Or Rainer's.....lol
>>Nope. Captive conditions can be optimal in so many different ways. Thru my own experience, and those whom I know that not only have bred and hatched out more snakes than anyone on here, have had much success in so many ways with different viewpoints of keeping.
How would you know specific husbandry information from these people?
I don't think you understand the difference between just living in captivity and thriving in captivity...
>>Cool! So have I...
So, when was the last time you paired up your animals and got them to breed successfully? And how many years did you do this? I have asked around and know one really knows..... You act ad though you were big time in the 80s and 90s. I don't think producing a few clutches here and there qualifies.....
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>>Genesis 1:1
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
"would put my OCD style of husbandry and the health of my animals up against anyone's...... Especially those breeders from the 70s and 80s.... Or Rainer's.....lol"
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" How would you know specific husbandry information from these people? "
John,
I knew about specific husbandry from these friends of mine because from simply put, knowing them, sharing info, knowledge, and experience with each other.
I do not act like I was big time. Come on dude, don't insinuate that. You are better than that. I am just stating my experience and my knowledge as well. After all, this IS what the forum is about, right?
I bred from 93-98, produced clutches of Cal kings, pueblans, speckled kings, corns, and Sinaloans, and had wonderful success, without doing anything similar to what self-appointed experts on an internet forum think that success is. Myself, and like I said, people I knew who bred way more snakes than anyone on here, did not go by what some here think is the only way, which is my point in all of this. There are many ways to do so, and this condescending attitude put forward on here by some, who think their way is the only way an animal can thrive, is one of the reasons many top kingsnake breeders don't bother with this forum.
It is that simple.
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Genesis 1:1
Yep.....
There are many ways.....
I haven't once told anyone they had to do anything my way or that their way is incorrect..... And I'd expect that no one elude that my way will harm my snakes as I have not and I am not in denial...
We're cool..... I just felt that you were directing this at me personally when I know my snakes are not unhealthy.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
Oh, I was not directing it at you John, and I am sorry if how I said things made it sound like that.
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Genesis 1:1
>>Oh, I was not directing it at you John, and I am sorry if how I said things made it sound like that.
>>-----
>>Genesis 1:1
Cool....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
Just wondering if all that breeding was with your partner (Henry) at his house or yours or were they bred at your house?
>>>People say powerfeeding doesn't exist, because, more than likely, they themselves powerfeed. It is called denial, IMO. Cramming as much food down the snake as it will take, as often as possible, to get them to breed as quick as possible ( my definition of powerfeeding ) is also not realistic when compared to how much they do eat in nature. It is just that simple. Feeding once a week, or every 3-4 days, is still a lot more than what they would be getting in nature. In nature, it is all about opportunity.
>please show proof of how much snakes eat in nature billy. you cannot just make blanket statements like that without some proof come on. i do agree in nature its all about opportunity but i believe there are times in nature when the opportunity is there and that the snakes take advantage of that, daily meals? id say .... sometimes.
its not about cramming as much food down the snake as it will take, as often as possible, to get them to breed as quick as possible its about having and raising a HEALTHY snake whether for breeding OR a pet. like doug said you have to use a little common sense. feeding a baby growing getula once a week is NOT healthy where as an adult that for the most part is done growing is fine on that feeding regimement. please dont make statements about wild snakes feeding habits without some sort of proof. see THIS isnt about OPINIONS billy its about raising HEALTHY snakes.
obesity is from poor conditions and to much food not "powerfeeding" whatever that term means.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
" please show proof of how much snakes eat in nature billy. "
Thomas, I can ask you the same question, and get the same response. Mentioning common sense is where that comes in here. Snakes do not have the capabilities or opportunities of eating that much food in the wild, as a keeper who throws in mice at any time THEY want to, because the snake has the ability to eat at that given time.
Heck ya, if they are given the opportunity to eat as much as they can in the wild, they will, and that is what they should do. In captivity, it is a different story. The absurd amount of tiny space in some box in a rack, we as keepers give them already is handicapped, compared to endless space and thermoregulation in the wild.
You are correct, it is about having healthy snakes.
Now, even though I do not do this, let me ask you, how, from a scientific standpoint, is feeding a baby getula once a week not healthy?? If their weight is fine, and their growth is good, how is that not healthy?
Take care!
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Genesis 1:1
Now, even though I do not do this, let me ask you, how, from a scientific standpoint, is feeding a baby getula once a week not healthy?? If their weight is fine, and their growth is good, how is that not healthy?
That is what the pet store lady said.
You should have left this one alone. Dougs advice was good and this time he was very careful in the way he articulalted.
This is a 9 month old eastern x florida I raised up years ago.
Does she ook fat?
The more you feed a growing king and it grows. The more resilient it will be and stronger captive. Onces that are fed once per week on a pinky get finicky and are malnourished. That makes for finicky and troublesome captives in the future.
The confsing advice is making people continue to raise up snakes for years on a pinky diet. We see this all the time in the hobby. Obviously this is the problem and not fat kingsnakes.
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Rainer,
Your egocentric reply was right on time, like Clockwork!! Thank you!!
Since I do not want to enable your unhealthy behaviour of winning arguments on this forum, and I may be doing so in posting this, I will say this:
First, Doug would agree with everything I just and have stated.
Second, yes, not only is that hybrid fat, the colors can not even be shown correctly, due to the scales being stretched far apart. Funny you post that pic, as that pic is known with the topic of fat snakes, with many top king breeders I know.
Take care. Thank you for posting.
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Genesis 1:1
Second, yes, not only is that hybrid fat, the colors can not even be shown correctly, due to the scales being stretched far apart
First it is not a hybrid. It is a man-made intergrade. Eastern and florida do intergrade in the wild billy. Mostly from the GA border and 300 miles down is all eastern x floridana intergrade.
Second. Since when did you become an expert about man made intergrade colors? Also the original poster had a question about his smallish eastern x Florida. So the pic was aimed at the topic at hand.
Blatanly obvious who is trying to win a pis$ing match again. Because anyone can see that snake is not fat. LOL!
You have a real thing about fat snakes. I am beginning to wonder if you have a reason for that. afraid to say it at home?
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I've fed snakes specifically juveniles once a week or every 3 days etc... Its always depended on what I wanted from a particular snake. I've even fed sibs different schedules and guess what ? ...the once a week feeders are simply about 2-3 inches shorter but just as well fleshed out as the 2X feeders. Please don't say a snake eating once a week will be tiny and malnourished it's a lie or at best vague on your part. If I started a hatchling on 2 pinks a week and never changed from pinks then your argument is sound. There are all kinds of other factors as well such as your temps, genetics of the animal. Here is what I've found if you want to grow a snake big and fast get a King from animals that get big first of all and feed it twice a week. I think what Billy is saying if you feed a proper amount once per week it's fine and I agree.
Look,, the bottom line is there are many MANY tiny 2-3 year old kingsnakes that are still being fed pinkies 1x per week. These snakes do and will not live long and productive healthy lives.
This is really about semantics for you and Billy. But really, it's really simple to comprehend and unourished kingsnakes are prevalent. So it is far more serious than you two making it out.
Taking away choices is never better.
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The once a week feeders are simply about 2-3 inches shorter but just as well fleshed out as the 2X feeders. Please don't say a snake eating once a week will be tiny and malnourished it's a lie or at best vague on your part
No lies. Oh my!
The reason yours only grow 2-3 inches more is because you havn't upped the size of your feeder mice. i never feed my florida kings more than one pinky in their lifetime. They get ONE. After that it is onto small fuzzies.
..and no, they won't choke on it. LOL!
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>>I've fed snakes specifically juveniles once a week or every 3 days etc... Its always depended on what I wanted from a particular snake. I've even fed sibs different schedules and guess what ? ...the once a week feeders are simply about 2-3 inches shorter but just as well fleshed out as the 2X feeders. Please don't say a snake eating once a week will be tiny and malnourished it's a lie or at best vague on your part. If I started a hatchling on 2 pinks a week and never changed from pinks then your argument is sound. There are all kinds of other factors as well such as your temps, genetics of the animal. Here is what I've found if you want to grow a snake big and fast get a King from animals that get big first of all and feed it twice a week. I think what Billy is saying if you feed a proper amount once per week it's fine and I agree.
Yep.... They'll live just fine on once a week feedings....
But is more than that considered powerfeeding?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
" I think what Billy is saying if you feed a proper amount once per week it's fine and I agree. "
And that is what I am and have been saying. Not hard to figure out.
This attitude about feeding once a week only is funny. " Are they thriving? " LOL!!
I have fed once a week juveniles, and I have fed every 4-5 days for juveniles, and what I have seen has not been much in the way of difference. I have had pituophis and kings grow to breeder size in two years with once a week feedings as well. Same with breeders I know that crank out tons of babies. Gee..I wonder if that is " thriving? " HAHA!!!!
If what you are feeding is too small for once a week, well duh, up the size!!
I actually have for years, feed all juveniles every 5 days. Had good results with that as well.
People can do things differently and have good results. Also, since each snake IS an individual, feeding times can vary as well. I feed certain snakes all throughout the week at different times, since their variance doesn't demand a schedule.
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Genesis 1:1
>>>" please show proof of how much snakes eat in nature billy. "
Thomas, I can ask you the same question, and get the same response. Mentioning common sense is where that comes in here. Snakes do not have the capabilities or opportunities of eating that much food in the wild, as a keeper who throws in mice at any time THEY want to, because the snake has the ability to eat at that given time.
NO NO NO it wasnt me who EVER suggested the amount or frequency of food wild snakes eat, that was all you billy.
the FACT remains you dont know or you would offer some sort of PROOF so you ARE/WERE MAKING IT UP, better known as talking out of your vent.
what on earth do you mean snakes do not have the capabilities or opportunities of eating that much food in the wild??? HOW ON EARTH WOULD YOU OR ANYONE KNOW THAT???
>>>Heck ya, if they are given the opportunity to eat as much as they can in the wild, they will, and that is what they should do. In captivity, it is a different story. The absurd amount of tiny space in some box in a rack, we as keepers give them already is handicapped, compared to endless space and thermoregulation in the wild.
SO you admit it, CHOICES... the more the better in captivity. FINALLY!!!
>>>You are correct, it is about having healthy snakes.
Now, even though I do not do this, let me ask you, how, from a scientific standpoint, is feeding a baby getula once a week not healthy?? If their weight is fine, and their growth is good, how is that not healthy?
many many probs. can be associeated with long term starvation billy. sure they CAN live on weekly feedings even less but they will not THRIVE and be healthy longterm beautiful representations of their sp.
why on earth would you want your snakes to just survive and NOT flourish and thrive for you??? why would you defend poor husbandry technics???
from a "scientific" standpoint how would you know unless you tried BOTH ways and saw the results both ways longterm.
we(herpers) see ALOT of either obese or skinny sickly kings from not being fed or cared for properly.
the 2 biggest factors to those problems are
1 not enough food and,
2 poor husbandry with NO choices in temps or humidity levels, EVER.
when the fact is with proper husbandry obesity is NOT in the equation AT ALL and with proper feedings ALONG with proper husbandry neither are skinny & sickly kings.
really seems like a NO BRAINER to me!
isnt it best to do ALL we can for our captives? isnt that the LEAST we can do is to ensure good conditions and ample food???
i would wager everything i own on the point that baby wild getula eat more than once a week.
,,,,,,,,,
plain and simple that is no way to treat a king.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
You ask, what is power feeding? I ask you, what is starvation? How much is too much, how much is too little?
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Gerard
"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."
ask your snakes... they will tell you gerard IF you listen.
,,,,,,,,,
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
If you don't know something at least don't use it in your explanations. If your going to use other people's answers, you should at least understand what they mean. I start my kings off on brown anole, how many would you consider starving them? Saying that snakes in the wild sometimes come across the opportunity to eat as much as thet can is not the same as feeding them as much as they can all the time. They can eat a lot at once, they do it because there is no way to know if it will eat again soon. If you consistently feed them one meal every week they may be getting the same amount of food as a wild snake. You can't say Billy can't prove his side when you can't do the same. Prove your way true.......oh yeah, you can't.
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Gerard
"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."
i have NOTHING to proove gerard. especially to you.
,,,,,,,,
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
You mean nothing to add, just like you never do.....to anything. You just like fighting online......
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Gerard
"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."
HAHAHAHAHAHAAA thats classic ESPECIALLY coming from you gerard! AAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAAAAHAHAAAA
ive said what i wanted to say...
i am not fighting with anyone?
since i dont never say anything WHY do you constantly follow me and my posts??? are you STALKING me gerard???
its probably just best if leave the kings to the grown ups, go on and go play with your turtles now.
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
If stalking is always pointing out your lack of knowledge, then yes. I asked a question that you couldn't answer, instead of saying I don't know, you start fighting. Classic indeed!
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Gerard
"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."
yeah ok whatever you say gerard.
my lack of knowledge AHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAAAA Right on! you GO boooooy, i am SOOOO beneath you... ROFLMFAO!!!
tell ya what, you wanna breed your kings so go ahead feed them babies one pinky mouse a week and keep them getula at a static temp of 83.290136 degrees except in winter then drop them to 46.93026 degrees then come back here in a year with documented growth rates and show us some babies... no cheating now static temps and only once a week feedings, you know just like TGF snake care manuals say to... ok?
see i did that very thing 30yrs. ago... i learned... i dont do that no more. some have to learn that way. you do what you need to do gerard just dont blame anyone else for problems you may encounter.
i will continue to battle IGNORANCE with KNOWLEDGE... except in your case, you for whatever reason dont need or want ANY of my knowledge i can see that, so to you i will give none. but make no mistake i will freely offer my knowledge to anyone(except you) that has a question on this or any other forum about kingsnakes. i will battle against STUPIDITY, bad husbandry and poor feeding technics until i die. i love kingsnakes and will defend them against anyone or anything, i got their back.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
Again, nothing but avoiding a question you can't answer. You make as much noise and cry as much as possible to take attention away from that fact. You have learned so much but have no answers, just parrot responses. Nows about the time you fall down and say your getting attacked and I'm not playing fair. You were questioning Billy and saying a bunch of stuff but have nothing to back it up with. I asked a simple question and you can't answer it. That's why you haven't responded to anyone else either, they can see you don't know.
"fighting knowledge with ignorance" I'm making your shirts for Daytona...A xsm for you, right?
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Gerard
"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."
>>>I asked a simple question and you can't answer it.
your right it was a "simple" question.
no answers for you!!!
you are not worthy of my knowledge gerards.
AAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.
it'd be best iffin you just DROP it now.
but i love dancing,SOOO, and you are so easy to lead. ROFLMFAO
you CYBER STALKER you.
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
Are you still responding?
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Gerard
"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."
Holy SMOKES!!....this is all I can picture as his keyboard is clicking away with big capital letters...LOL!!
HAHAHAHAHHA!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!
HAHAHAAHHAHAHA!!!
HAHAHAHAHHAHAAH!!!
HAHAHAHHAHAAHAAH!!!
HAHAHAHHAAHHAAHA!!
HAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAH!!
HAHAHAHAHAHHAAAH!!!!!!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
serpentinespecialties.webs.com
"some are just born to troll and roll"
the horror.... oh the horror
thats scary doug
its nice to see a lil levity
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
So you ignore Billy to avoid the question and comment here, weak. Classic little boy. Daytona!
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Gerard
"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."
>>>So you ignore Billy to avoid the question and comment here, weak. Classic little boy. Daytona!
GEEZ man you are still here??? BABBLING AWAY??? what on earth do you mean i ignore billy??? i have and i avoid NOTHING gerard.
daytona HA! what does that mean? is it some sort of veiled internet threat? you wanna go there? really???
AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHAAAAAA
AHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHAHHAHAAAHAHAA
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAAA
ROFLMFAO
GET A LIFE!
,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
I'm sorry you feel threatened. Daytona meant I can't wait to wear my tshirt.
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Gerard
"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."
oh i DONT feel threatened at all gerard. i have no reason to feel threatened. obiviously you are the one that feels threatened, thus you just keep on digging.
sad... it really is PATHETIC
,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
>>You ask, what is power feeding? I ask you, what is starvation? How much is too much, how much is too little?
>>-----
Actually if you have a large collection and you feed Only on Sundays some snakes are starving..... If you give them a single meal and hey will take more the are starving for more....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
Starving, really, how can you say that? If I can eat another slice of pizza after my first, am I starving?
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Gerard
"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."
Depends if it's a slice from a 10" pie or a 30" pie. Haha!
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>>>Starving, really, how can you say that? If I can eat another slice of pizza after my first, am I starving?
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Gerard
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
you are NOT a kingsnake ya DINGDONG, DAMN now im hungry
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
And you are not FR, go to burger king. What's the difference, can you even answer that? How can you back up what you claim? If you say you don't have too, just say you can't and be you.
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Gerard
"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."
Lol what finger is that snake on ?
The one pointed and Davis, lol! Funny stuff!
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Gerard
"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."
Usually I stay out of these conversations but I just had a talk with a mouse breeder today about an episode that he had seen these past two weeks. He was cleaning his cages and found a yellow rat in one of the tubs. The snake ate all the fuzzy mice in the tub and couldn't get out. 2 days later found the same snake in the same tub and ate 2 adults. 4 days later, you guessed it same snake in a different tub, eating all the smaller mice. Just seems like either the snake needed the calorie intake because it's spring or they were just easy meals and he could devour whatever he wanted. Just a story but I think snakes are opportunistic feeders and when there is food they will eat. If the calorie intake for each snake is different. Some of my adults get fed every 10-14 days and then some of my adults get fed every 5 days. Some burn the calories off because they are more active and some are very lazy and sit and wait.
I think the best thing to do is take it on a snake by snake basis. I agree that hatchlings will put their calorie intake into growth and adults use it as survival. Some years it is dry and hot in nature and vice versa. The years when there is a plentiful amount of food the snakes will produce more and healthier offspring and have a better chance of surviving. By eating more and more.
Oak trees do this by the amount of acorns. If I remember correctly they produce a certain amount of acorns and then every 5-8 years they use stored energy and produce double the amount. This helps with the tree to make sure it's genes are being passed on. In one year the squirrel population won't double and they can not eat all the acorns. This gives the tree an advantage to get a few more seedlings started and increases the chance of survival.
Just food for thought.
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Good story, the snake taking advantage of a easy meal. In the wild the snake would find a pile of pinkies, eat everyone and wish there were more. I feed like you said, on a snake by snake basis. My hatchlings get fed every 6 days, a good sized meal. They grow good and are 100% healthy. It probably averages out to the same amount of food a wild snake would find in a average year.
You have a dangerous collection, to many things I have to buy from you. How are the gentilis doing?
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Gerard
"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."
Good, they hooked up again today. She eats like a pig too, so hopefully we will see in a few weeks. I will let you know when she gets closer. "Dangerous collection"LOL. More like a kick ass collection! Well, in my eyes anyway. I am still jealous over Lassiter's mexmex line up.haha!
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Kick ass is exactly what I meant, your going to have a killer year. John is another one, those blackies are high on my must have list. I hope he produces me a hypo e pyro too. Lol! How about the celeanops?
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Gerard
"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."
Female was a little thin coming out so she is nice plump now, and also in shed so they will probably be put together late week. Looking promising.
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Please put me on that list.
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Gerard
"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."
Those will be hets too. I wont have a het female ready until next year. I will put you on the list, though.
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Thomas,
You are making this way harder than it is.
Think really basic about this. The amount of food some pusher has his snakes eat, is really going to be a lot more than what a snake in the opportunistic realities of nature will find. Some guy who feeds every 3 days multiple food items will be feeding way more than a snake most likely will find in the wild. Really think about it. Heck, even a once a week feeding may be more. Possibly more, possibly less. I am talking about those who really feed a ton. Any herper who has herped in the field, would understand my point.
But even so, the fact that they are in boxes in a rack, again, sets them back, from the supreme conditions of the wild. Endless space and thermoregulation. Not ever going to be replicated in captivity.
You do not seem to be comprehending what I am speaking out. I never talked against choices?
" many many probs. can be associeated with long term starvation billy."
Of course, that is a given, but also, many problems can be associated with overfeeding as well. The proof is out there.
" sure they CAN live on weekly feedings even less but they will not THRIVE and be healthy longterm beautiful representations of their sp. "
How do you know they will not thrive on weekly feedings? Come on..that makes no sense. The proof is out there, they can and will thrive on weekly feedings, along with more frequent feedings. That is not defending poor husbandry at all. I have seen both ways and seen the results. See, my point was powerfeeding is unhealthy, not even about the practice of feeding more than I personally do. Healthy feeding regimens, not pushing, for each particular snake, works out better. All my baby getula eat more than once a week.
All my opinion. We may just agree to disagree.
Take care!
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Genesis 1:1
>>>Think really basic about this. The amount of food some pusher has his snakes eat, is really going to be a lot more than what a snake in the opportunistic realities of nature will find. Some guy who feeds every 3 days multiple food items will be feeding way more than a snake most likely will find in the wild. Really think about it. Heck, even a once a week feeding may be more. Possibly more, possibly less. I am talking about those who really feed a ton. Any herper who has herped in the field, would understand my point.
how can you say that with absolutely ZERO evidence??? really???!!!???
ive field herped all of my life, and for the life of me i see no point at all in your assumption. other than the point you are always TRYING to make and that is that i am somehow wrong and you are right.
some pusher??? WTF does that mean??? i cannot believe you are actually trying to defend weekly feedings for baby growing getula!
sad, sad, sad
even doug(your idol) said every 3-4 days with proper conditions.
and THAT IS the key... proper conditions so that baby getula CAN equate adequate food intake into growth which in turn will lead to a longterm healthy long lived king.
feed them.
simple if you want a robust perfect representation then provide proper conditions and feed them 2X a week for the first year of their life, then watch/listen to them and use that uncommon thing called SENSE and feed them accordingly.
if you just want a pet snake that you really dont care about other than the thrill of having one then sure 80degrees and feed a pinky mouse a week... thats good sound advise there billy slowly starve them to death whilst being kept in conditions with absolutely ZERO choices in temps or humidity levels, geez you really are TOO MUCH.
,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
What's starving?
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Gerard
"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."
A GOOD EXAMPLE OF STARVING IS YOU RIGHT HERE AND NOW... STARVING FOR ATTENTION.
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
You always start off trying to sound like FR but always end sounding like you. Hahaha!!!
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Gerard
"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."
well thanks gerard that means SOOOO much coming from you. but i digress all of my base knowledge wouldnt add up to whats in FR's pinky toe( well maybe his pinky toe ) i really apprecieate the compliment though
FR's da'man!!! we (herptoculture) ALL stand on his shoulders.
,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
Copy & Paste answer as is the norm for you.
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Gerard
"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."
You really have to grow up first of all and act your age.
" Pusher " is a term for someone who powerfeeds his snakes to death, and is commonly used among many I know. Are you one?
You really seem to like Doug there. Yes, I know what Doug said, and also, Doug would not disagree with once a week as well. He sometimes lets snakes go longer than 3-4 days as well.
See, your little condecending wanna-be bully attitude is the reason why so many laugh at this forum. Seriously. You are one of the reasons many do not even bother posting. I am not trying to be mean, but someone has got to let you know.
See, you like to use the term choices, to make yourself sound so much above others. What is funny, is that even yourself do not give them all the choices they would want. Try this. Take off a lid of one of your boxes, and see how fast the snake will make a choice to take off. Now, why are you not letting them do that?
Your hypocrisy is thick, my friend.
Like I have stated, I feed my getula in their first year every 5 days. Heck, sometims 4, sometimes 6. I have before fed once every 7 days, raised phenomonal breeders, known many breeders with more snake production than anyone that posts here, that have raised snakes on 7 day feeding regimens, and you somehow can't seem to digest the fact that others have done things differently, and have had great results. You throw out terms like " starvation " when you yourself do not know firsthand.
See, the proof is there, but you turn a deaf year, just like the sinaloan-nelsoni issue.
You have got to become humble Thomas and realize that the hobby does not revolve around what you do. Seriously. You have got to be open to learn new things, and " listen " to the snakes, as you so commonly say.
But hey....we just disagree..no biggie.
Take care!
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Genesis 1:1
>>>But hey....we just disagree..no biggie.
E X A C T L Y! finally your getting it!
i actually CARE about my snakes and dont feel the need to control them like you and many others do.
go ahead and defend poor husbandry billy.
you have no idea how i keep my snakes if you come to ETHS expo i will have you over and show you.
it is ALL about choices the more the better!
,,,,,,,thomas davis
p.s. sinaloan and nelson are TOTALLY the same snake, just like splendida and holbrooki taxonomy is ALL screwed up imho
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
" E X A C T L Y! finally your getting it! "
Actually, I have been saying that this whole time.
" i actually CARE about my snakes and dont feel the need to control them like you and many others do. "
Any keeper who keeps snakes has some form of control Thomas. They have to in order to maintain a collection.
Also, making hybrids proves you don't really care about the snakes, fellow herpers, and the species as a whole, IMO. Making hybrids destroys species. All it is, is self serving, and the fact you manipulate snakes that would never mate in the wild also proves that you have more control issues than anyone who would not do so. That type of manipulation is all about control, Thomas. What you do is very easy to read.
" go ahead and defend poor husbandry billy. "
See...and that again shows your little wanna-be bullying, condescending attitude. You already are saying that since I do things different, I must have poor husbandry. Grow up.
You have yet to refute anything.
You have yet to disprove scientific fact in regards to sinaloan vs. nelsoni.
You still are not able to act maturely when it comes to discussion. When things don't go your way, you do the typical, HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA or LMAO or GET A CLUE or abuse terms such as " hate " or " nazi ".
Nothing more can be said on these subjects.
Take care!!
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Genesis 1:1
" You have yet to disprove scientific fact in regards to sinaloan vs. nelsoni.
You still are not able to act maturely when it comes to discussion. When things don't go your way, you do the typical, HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA or LMAO or GET A CLUE or abuse terms such as " hate " or " nazi ". "
That's because he can't. He copy and pastes his answers to every question. He just likes to fight online to make up for how he is in person, which EVERYONE here has said. I wish he would go to the milk forum and say his nelsoni vs. sinaloan opinion. He wont, he got ran out of there and hasnt returned. That's all he has, no knowledge, just opinions. What size shirt do you want Billy?
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Gerard
"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."
I'm sure I'll regret making this post but I just can't hold it in any longer.
It never ceases to amaze me how you same few guys get into these same old childish back and forth arguments again week after week after month after month after year after year. What makes it even more amazing to me is that I know about what age you all are. It seems so important for you all to get in your little jabs and insults over and over again, no matter how childish it makes you all look to others in the herp community. Y'all don't appear to mind ruining others serious questions and posts again and again for your own satisfaction.
I'm sure you will be pissed at me for saying this but it is truely just ridiculous.
Cindy if you read this and might consider taking a bribe to give a month "off" here and there to some please let me know and I'll see what I can get together. lol
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Randy Whittington
Amen..... I second that Randy.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
Actuallly, I agree with you, it is very over with. I was cleaning some turtles thinking about that the last hour or so. I start it sometimes and it comes out of no where the rest. The funny thing is it's really just one person it happens with and I don't even know why I get into it. I look back and see the long ass stack of nothing and think, I don't even remember responding that many times, funny. You are right though, it does get in the way of valid questions. I will not be responding to him from now on, as it never leads to answers or civil conversation. I will only talk to him in person from here on out. Im not sorry for what I said but I'm sorry for interrupting who ever asked the question. Good night and good point...
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Gerard
"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."
well i agree it does get rediculous however i am simply stating my opinions and defending my opinions against continual blatant attacks. i think anyone who reads it can see that. i dont feel i ruin anyones serious questions or posts. i speak my mind and i dont back down. i continually say in most all of my posts that pertain to husbandry, feeding, housing, etc that it is MY opinion i do not preach my way is the right and only way, again i think anyone who reads my posts can see that. so no im not mad at you at all randy as i said i agree it is rediculous though most of the time i use the word pathetic.
at anyrate put me down for 20bux on "the fund" AND i will start posting again in the end of april.
take it easy, SEE YA'LL NEXT MONTH that is unless our dear sweet moderator feels i need more "time in da' pokey"
,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis(self and peer imposed forum ban 3/25/12 thru 4/25/12)
byebye
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
Randy, I totally agree with you. This is why I almost never make a post on here. I pretty much stopped reading the forum for that reason. I love all you guys and there are just so many different ways to take care of snakes. I have been doing this since 73 and still learn a lot from other people. I keep mine a certain way and other people keep theirs a different way. My way works for me and other ways may work for other people. I am always willing to learn something different but to argue about their way of keeping snakes versus another way is rediculas. Another thing that bugs me is when people who act like they know it all, get on here and has to argue when they haven't bred as much as they would have you believe. Also, there are people who post on here that I respect that have been doing this a long time and other people degrade and belittle them. I may not always agree with them but they are some of the pioneers. Just my thoughts.
Don...
You may remember some 16 years ago when I used to ask you all those dumb questions....LOL
I remember once emailing you asking you what the heck was going on because my female calking was laying a second clutch the same day her first one was hatching.....That was weird for me back then.....hahaha
I consider you and Soderberg to be my mentors because you two were always there to answer those newbie questions.
Then I started reading posts from Frank Retes and information from Bob Applegate and others and I certainly took what I wanted to take and applied it. I even thought up a few things on my own...Imagine that...LOL
I think I came a long way since then.....But I still like to learn how others are doing things and how they work for them.
I adjust things yearly to better my husbandry.....
Anyway...I agree with you Don.....there is certainly more than one way to keep these captives healthy and producing...And opinions should be taken as such.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
Perfect post!!
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Genesis 1:1
Yep. I don't even care who's right or wrong. It's like watching 5 year olds bicker...the hell of it is the two of them have some decent smarts and do manage to do well with thier animals
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
It's not just two people I was referring to.
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Randy Whittington
I think more like four or five.
well your opinions are just like EVERYONES IN LIFE about ANYTHING, in the end it doesnt matter, we ALL have one about all manner of things. i for one feel its GOOD thing to express ones opinion, apparently you dont... SAD.
do you feel empowered to come on here and say i dont care about snakes billy??? when snakes are my life and anyone who knows me knows that. so good for you. show them colors of HATE for all to see. well until it gets deleted anyway.
>>>You have yet to refute anything.
i do not have to refute anything to you or anyone else billy, especially when it pertains to my OPINION!
>>>You have yet to disprove scientific fact in regards to sinaloan vs. nelsoni.
i am not nor ever have tried to disprove scientific fact??? where the heck did that come from??? i stated my OPINION billy! geez do you have a comprehension problem or what?!?!?!?
>>>You still are not able to act maturely when it comes to discussion. When things don't go your way, you do the typical, HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA or LMAO or GET A CLUE or abuse terms such as " hate " or " nazi ".
yeah ok billy whatever you say we WILL discuss this when we see each other again. see if i think something is funny i laugh HAHAHA or LMAO when someone is clueless like saying a SFMK is NOT a calligaster yeah i say GET A CLUE, pretty sad you feel im abusive, frankly i dont care what you think billy no more than you care what i think.
>>>Nothing more can be said on these subjects.
E X A C T L Y !!! we finally can agree on something!!!!!!!
can you drop it now???
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
My biggest, freaky big female florida is on 100 gramrats and she's like 8 months. my smallest of that age just started on adult mice last week. It varies significantly.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
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