Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi!

Here is an actual pic of my superhypo L.m.greeri female "Belisa"(germany `09).

yours

Michael

and a pic of my new MSP male L.m.thayeri(L.leonis) , hatched last season....

>>and a pic of my new MSP male L.m.thayeri(L.leonis) , hatched last season....
>>
>>

Nice one and I like the use of L. leonis.....
Everyone get used to it....They are their own species.....as is greeri and mexicana.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

"Everyone get used to it....They are their own species.....as is greeri and mexicana.

Oh Boy, they are splitting all three into separate species now? That's like taking knoblochi from the pyromelana and calling all pyro's south of the Mogollon Rim knoblochi. Just don't see it. I am sure many will still call them mexicana in the hobby because that is the way it has been for years. Just my thought. Name it what you want I will always know them as "thayeri" scientifically correct or not.
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>>"Everyone get used to it....They are their own species.....as is greeri and mexicana.
>>
>>Oh Boy, they are splitting all three into separate species now? That's like taking knoblochi from the pyromelana and calling all pyro's south of the Mogollon Rim knoblochi. Just don't see it. I am sure many will still call them mexicana in the hobby because that is the way it has been for years. Just my thought. Name it what you want I will always know them as "thayeri" scientifically correct or not.
>>-----
>>

Understand that the first nuevo Leon king found was named Leonis....
After that they called the ones found inleonis range thayeri for some unknown reason.....you'll read about it all in my article in Reptiles magazine in July.

Much like how alterna and blairi are now both alterna.....mexicans will now be split into species...... The original Leonis nomenclature will be used for Nuevo Leon kings with both Leonis and MSP phases just as alterna have both alterna and Blair's phases....... And if you didn't know there are alternate and banded morphs of all Mexicans except ruthveni..... Yes, even banded greeri and mex mex!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Understand that the first nuevo Leon king found was named Leonis....

I do understand it, I read the earlier works done, thanks to Bob Hanson's site

After that they called the ones found inleonis range thayeri for some unknown reason.....

OK

you'll read about it all in my article in Reptiles magazine in July.

Cool, Congrats! Looking forward to reading it.

Much like how alterna and blairi are now both alterna.....mexicans will now be split into species...... The original Leonis nomenclature will be used for Nuevo Leon kings with both Leonis and MSP phases just as alterna have both alterna and Blair's phases....... And if you didn't know there are alternate and banded morphs of all Mexicans except ruthveni..... Yes, even banded greeri and mex mex!

I do understand that there are banded greeri and mexmex, once again thanks to Bob's site.(Well, atleast greeri, can't remember if he had any banded mex mex pics posted) I understand all this but I still will wind up calling the thayeri, I still talk to people that still use woodini. What I am getting at, its not the work of how they are classified by scientists but by what I will remember them by and what they have been called for my lifetime up until now.

So what is the basis of changing everything from L.mexicana ssp to their own sp.? MtDNA? Geographical plates? Who did the work? Is the paper available?
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Very observant Jimmy. All of this info has been on Robert Hansen's site for years, and we need to give Bob credit for compiling it all in one place. I do need to credit John for bringing this info to the forum however.

It's all just names. The way we define what a species is has changed as well. The bottom line is that DNA evidence shows that "thayeri" is not as closely related to mex-mex and greeri as previously thought. The papers to back this up are on Bob's site.

How about that pyro paper? Seems like the Rim is enough of a barrier to gene flow to call the pyros north and south of it different species. I think the hardest thing for folks on this forum (including myself) is to wrap my head around the evolutionary species concept that is being used in these papers. The biological species concept that the majority of us hobbyists still adhere to is 30 years out of date in the eyes of most biologists.

"Very observant Jimmy. All of this info has been on Robert Hansen's site for years, and we need to give Bob credit for compiling it all in one place. I do need to credit John for bringing this info to the forum however."

Thanks, and I agree that Bob has done unbelievable work on his site to bring all these scientific papers to our disposal. John, is the "Mexicana King" here on the forums, and am also glad as to what he brings to the table. Much Thanks to the both of them!

It's all just names. The way we define what a species is has changed as well. The bottom line is that DNA evidence shows that "thayeri" is not as closely related to mex-mex and greeri as previously thought. The papers to back this up are on Bob's site

I will go check out the work done, I understand as advances in technology are available things in the animal complex will change. I will go check out Bob's site and read the latest work, Thanks!

How about that pyro paper? Seems like the Rim is enough of a barrier to gene flow to call the pyros north and south of it different species. I think the hardest thing for folks on this forum (including myself) is to wrap my head around the evolutionary species concept that is being used in these papers. The biological species concept that the majority of us hobbyists still adhere to is 30 years out of date in the eyes of most biologists.

I see it like this. If you were a foster child and never knew it, and then at age 35 you find out your DNA does not match your parents. You are either going to embrace your name change and your lineage or you will live your life the way you have always known it to be. Again, personal choice. I have always known L.leonis as L.m.thayeri and I will try and embrace the change, but will be hard as this is how I have seen and read about this species for years.

I think for me personally I have always deciphered the difference between ssp. by visual appearance and not by DNA or by evolutionary differences
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Nice one and I like the use of L. leonis.....
Everyone get used to it....They are their own species.....as is greeri and mexicana.
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PPPPPPPPFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTT!
they are totally ALL the same!!!

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>Nice one and I like the use of L. leonis.....
>>Everyone get used to it....They are their own species.....as is greeri and mexicana.
>>-----
>>
>>PPPPPPPPFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTT!
>>they are totally ALL the same!!!
>>

Who's they?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Remember these Mexican kings are isolated elevated species..... Not lowland getula Where there is simple genetic flow.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>>Remember these Mexican kings are isolated elevated species..... Not lowland getula Where there is simple genetic flow.....

im just razzing ya john i get that getula is a "complex" and those other kings are a group. i think complexes and groups are very similiar.
congrats on your reptiles article mine was on honduran milks in march of '08
,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

NO! they are not the same species...don`t compare the getula-complex with the mexicana-group.

calm down michael i was just razzing john a little.
getula is a complex and mexicana is a group... i get it!

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

No problem!

That posting does not represent my style, but i don`t wanted to start a discussion that leads to nowhere...

Cheers from germany ,
Michael

cool,no problem.
do you know bernd s.? he is here in texas somewhere??? and supposed to call me if he makes it e.tx(houston)... anyway i am a lumper when it comes to ssp. but really i was just pokin john

cheers
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Hi,
yes I know Bernd Sk*****us, he is an activ member of the DGHT.
He has some nice floridanas but he is mostly interrested in pituphis .
Bernd has published some interresting articles about snakes and his trips into the USA.
Have seen him this months at the Hamm-show ...

yours
Michael

Yes John!
The holotype of Coronella leonis represents a snake we call leonis-phase in the hobby today(the snake is a part of the collection of the British Museum) and the snake discribed as Lampropeltis thayeri diplays a MSP...so we should call the MSP leonis better "thayeri-phase of Lampropeltis leonis"in the hobby...

How about L.leonis lassiteri ???? Haha!!!!! Kinda has a ring to don't you think?
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>>How about L.leonis lassiteri ???? Haha!!!!! Kinda has a ring to don't you think?
>>-----
>>

Lol...... I've only been to Nuevo Leon once I'm my life....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Oh John,
I would really like to visit Nuevo-leon with you, that would be herping-trip...maybe one day when the situation in mexico has changed....

>>Oh John,
>>I would really like to visit Nuevo-leon with you, that would be herping-trip...maybe one day when the situation in mexico has changed....

When I went it wasn't for herping....
I too would like to head down there when it's safe and find all that I've enjoyed in captivity in the wild.... In the meantime I will continue searching for alterna, holbrooki, splendida, getula intergrades, calligaster, 3 triangulum and their intergrades all right here in Texas.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

So ...you live in a "rich"country with all the snakes,we have only 6 speies of snakes in germany and some are very rare...that`s why we spent our vacation in croatia, a wonderful mediterane nation with a fascinating nature...and 14 snake species!

>>So ...you live in a "rich"country with all the snakes,we have only 6 speies of snakes in germany and some are very rare...that`s why we spent our vacation in croatia, a wonderful mediterane nation with a fascinating nature...and 14 snake species!

Texas is a great state for herping.....So are a few other of those small states....LOL

And...I enjoyed those Croatian photos you sent last year....Awesome trip.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Some pics of my display tanks....front 100x50cm and 60cm deep...

And finally some pics of the Oreocryptophis porphyraceus laticinctus (bamboo ratsnake)...these are 1.1 from 2010.

After dinner...

yours

Michael

All sweet looking snakes! I like these better than the coxi, especially when the are younger. Your display cages are nice too. I need to display more of my animals, maybe when I buy a bigger house I will build some more display cages.
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Thank you!

When we visited the breeder of our laticinctus he has shown us O.p.coxi, vailanti and laticinctus...and the laticinctus fascinated us most....and BTW pulchra is another very nice snkae but high-priced...$$$$$....

Maybe rack-systems has some pro and contras but i like to observe my snakes.So display-tanks works best for us...get some more of them Jimmy!

Awesome animals, pulchra are fun too. I had a pair of laticinctus from Germany. My old boss brought them back from a show he did there. Cool stuff!
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Gerard

"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Hi Gerald,

have you visited the Hamm-show in germany!When have you been there the last time?

And who produced your old laticinctus?

yours

Michael

I have not been, yet. I don't remember who they came from, I will try and find out. I am going to China first, I export all my babies there and there are some really cool turtle places I want to go to. Germany will be in a couple years, maybe go to Poland, see some family.
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Gerard

"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Hi,
maybe we can meet here someday...but china sounds great !

Many years ago i had a change to work in Hong Kong but the army got me first...

Let me know when you got some detail about the laticinctus.

yours
Michael

Indeed, sounds like fun.
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Gerard

"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

WOW, nice collection Michael.

Thank you!

But i have a question: do you like Black Sabbath???

That is very nice, is there any other morphs from that species?
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Gerard

"The only difference between myself and a madman is that I am not mad."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Thank you!

here you can see some more greeri-variations:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1972677,1972689

and

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1972677,1972802

yours

Michael

There was one striped greeri hatched back a dozen years ago or so.....I had it's sister back then.....None of those genes were ever passed to any down the line and the striping was written off as the result of fluctuating incubation temps/humidity.......

I've been trying to find the old photo but haven't had any luck...I know Eric Kikel used to own it about 8 years ago or so......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...