Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I honestly am lost as to which method to go with. Substrateless, vermiculite, perilite, hatchrite or a combination or vermiculite and perilite. Any pics, tips, hatch rates would be greatly appreciated. I think I have 2 gravid females so far this season and just want to be prepared ahead of time instead of scrambling around going "oh #*^# oh #@*& what do I do?" thanks in advance for all the help
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1.0 firefly(pos het pied) 1.0 enchi 1.0 super reduced clown 0.1 bumblebee 0.1 mojave 0.1 butter pastel 0.1 spotnose 0.1 pewter 0.1 pastel 0.1 pied 0.1 het pied 0.1 vanilla 0.7 normals

If you have any questions I can be reached at 408-981-6694.

Good luck.
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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

Hi,

I was a confirmed vermiculite user throughout the 90's, but a couple of innappropriate water/vermic mixes on my part caused some losses. On a whim, I switched to perlite, not even really knowing how it worked. I knew that it was added to my planting mixes, like vermic, so it must be similar. I have had great success using perlite ever since. The reason why I like it is that the water is not absorbed by the perlite as it is with vermiculite. Therfore, It cannot take water from my eggs in dry conditions and it cannot saturate my eggs in wet conditions. With perlite, the water settles below the eggs and they are bathed in the humidity created by the incubator's warm conditions, as they should be. I know that these SIM and other new incubation techniques rely on keeping the eggs above the water, however, that is what perlite does anyway. Basically any medium will work, as I've cooked eggs with coco-peat, dirt, peat, spagnum, sand and paper towels, in addition to perlite and vermic. however, perlite has proven, to me anyway, to be the safest medium out there. Good luck.

Will

If SIM stands for "Substrateless Incubation Method" your perlite set-up is basically the same thing. Anything that keeps the eggs off of the wet substrate. A pile of pea-gravel would work just as well. BP eggs are so easy to hatch, it doesn't matter a lot what you do.

Hi mike, I agree completely. Any non-absorbing substrate would do the same thing.

Will

>>Hi mike, I agree completely. Any non-absorbing substrate would do the same thing.
>>
>>Will

Now that specifically is why folks use the eggcrate light diffuser to keep the eggs off of the perlite..If the top layer of it gets dry enough then it could act as a dessicate to the eggs.

$0.02
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Charles Glaspie
picasaweb.google.com/coldthumb

Hi,

That's just it. Perlite doesn't pull water from the eggs like vermiculite, even at the top. The top layer of perlite, the one with the most egg contact, is always dry in my egg boxes. However, the air within the box is always very humid.

I also fill my boxes with as much medium as they will hold, while still allowing room for a big clutch. That acts a humidity reservoir. The more medium in the box, of any type, the more stable conditions will be. Thanks.

Will

Those eggs look great Mike, very nice. How much medium do you keep beneath the eggcrate? Thanks.

Will

There isn't as much room below the grate as I'd like, only about 1 1/2 inches. I had to leave enough room on top of the grate for a pile of eggs. Sometimes a big pile that doesn't come apart will have to go in a deeper box.

BTW, I remove all of the eggs from these boxes with multiple clutches around day 50 before they pip and get egg goo in the box. I re-use the box all year and sometimes from year to year. The snakes hatch on paper and don't get caught in the grate or drown under it. They also don't get vermiculite in their mouth and heat pits.

20 years and hundredssss of eggs...

I used HovaBators ( up to 4 at a time) and no boxes inside...
(yes you have to get the babies out before they fry, never had one die this way)_

I used Vermiculite....I like to mix perlite with it also at times.....cheapest way to go....buy it by the big bags...keep looking for it...

....hatchrite...$$$$ why bother...
....substrateless....if you know how and do it correctly....

....good luck....whatever works for you.,...
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........JY

Back in the day (mid 90s), I used hobavators without boxes for jungle carpet clutches. I just pre-mixed the vermic (at the time), dump it in that styro tray and added eggs. I'd find those little arboreal worms curled around the heat element if I didn't pull them in time. Never had one get burned, surprisingly.

Will

One day none will have pipped the next day they are all over the place.

I use sphagnum moss with very good results
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Sed et serpens erat callidior cunctis animantibus terrae quae fecerat Dominus Deus...

Obviously people have many different methods. Like the reply earlier, perlite is the way to go. It is the most forgiving, gives them better ventilation than vermiculite and you don't have to worry about the eggs drying out like you might with using no substate.

If you want to be exact, get yourself a kitchen scale. Weigh out your perlite, and then add the exact same amount of water (by weight) to the perlite. So, for example, 175 grams of perlite and 175 grams of water. Use an air tight container (I use the shoe-box size sterlite with the latching ends). About half full of the substrate.

Then, every week or so, I open them and air it out a bit. Towards the end of their incubation you will notice a lot of condensation on the container. At that point, I undo the latches and let a little more air in naturally.

The only eggs I've ever lost were ones that never had veins to start.

Oh, and you might consider wearing a mask when you are pouring and mixing the perlite. It can get really dusty, and cannot be good for the lungs.
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Reid Begnoche
http://www.tallgrassreptiles.com
tallgrassreptiles@gmail.com

Yes...get your scale...weight this and that...hope you got it right...weight it as you go, double check eggs for problems...or just dump hatchrite in the box...add eggs...and presto they hatch...dont have to add anything but eggs...not expensive to get...20lb bag 40.00 plus shipping...20lb will cover about 20 boxes and you can re-use it if they dont make a huge mess coming out or if you move them to a hatch box...use what you like...try them all...most have and they found what they like...I know I have.
Travis
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LAIR OF DRAGONS

A pile of perlite is the same thing as substrateless incubation method. It wouldn't change things one bit if you put a light diffuser on top of the pile of perlite to insure the eggs didn't touch the water. The only thing the perlite does is to keep the eggs away from the water. Pile up the perlite and add water that doesn't reach the top of the pile. Plain water under the egg crate is all that is needed, the only thing accomplished by adding a medium under the egg crate is to keep the water from sloshing around on to the eggs when moving the box.

This debate is pointless though due to the fact that BP eggs are so easy to hatch. Almost any method would work. If we were discussing something that was more difficult to hatch, the incubation method matters much more. I haven't hatched any Chondros in many years, or even read anything about them lately, but the last time I checked, the SIM was the method of choice.

I am not saying my method is the best, I just know it works for me. The whole reason why people use the light diffusers is because they are concerned they don't have the right amount of water... too much or too little mixed with the substrate.

Simply weigh it out, and you dont need to bother with diffusers, or worry about keeping the eggs off the substrate. The difference between using just water and perlite is, the perlite obsorbes the water and holds the moister. Why do you think they use it in potting soil?? If you have too much water in the container, condensation forms, and starts dripping on your eggs. Which could cause problems.

The reason why I weigh it out, is because I know the ratio of 1 to 1 (perlite to water) gets me through the entire incubation cycle. I don't need to add water or worry about the humidity levels (assuming you have a somewhat air tight container). The only reason why I open the container from time to time is to let some fresh air in... not sure if this is really required or not, but I am a little OCD about it.

Hatchrite is quite expensive. You could pay for a kitchen scale with one bag... And they both accomplish the same thing... take the guessing out of it.

Good luck!
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Reid Begnoche
http://www.tallgrassreptiles.com
tallgrassreptiles@gmail.com

"the perlite obsorbes the water and holds the moister. Why do you think they use it in potting soil??"

Perlite does not absorb water. Vermiculite does that. Perlite is added to a mix of vermiculite to prevent the vermiculite from getting compacted and soggy, it allows air flow through the mix. The purpose of perlite in potting soil is to provide air flow in the soil, so it doesn't get too compacted. It gives surface area for roots. Water will stick to the vast surface area of perlite due to the many holes and craters.

A pile of perlite, or gravel or marbles or nuts and bolts or the commonly used light diffuser simply keeps the eggs from the water. Whoever posted the pic of just water under their light diffuser has a set-up that works just fine, you just have to be careful when moving the box to keep from sloshing the water on the eggs.

I have no doubt that your method works just fine, but the addition of a light diffuser adds an extra layer of protection between the eggs and the water.

This is what works for me. 6 qt shoe or egg box actually, about 3/4 of an inch of Peralite in the bottom of the box. Put water to the top of the perlite and then cut a rectangle of the (egg crate) light difuser that fits into the box and lay it on top of the perlite and water mix. Just make sure you dont put so much water into it that the perlite floats and when you set the difuser down onto it the water comes up through the grating because you are going to set your eggs ontop of the plastic grating and it works wonderful for me. Jay
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JEMreptiles@gmail.com from sunny AZ.

Lots of cool Ball Pythons along with
0.0.1 Vietnamese Blue Beauty and some great Bull snakes.
1.1 Argentinian Black and White Tegus
1.0 Gotti Pitbull (Tank)
2.0 Beautiful Bengals (Stryker and Cynbad)
12 Tarantulas
Last but most Important 2.2 Children

Calcined Clay ( Superhatch)
If you Google Superhatch there is a great write up on incubation substrates. What they are. How they function. Pros and Cons. Hope this helps.
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If you plan for 1 year, plant rice.
If you plan for 10 years, plant trees.
If you plan for 100 years, educate mankind.

I just use water. It works great and is easy. No mold No problem.

Holloway Herps

That is excellent, I have used just the water before also when I ran short and needed to get some eggs into the incubator. Has the same affect as using the egg crate and soaking the perlitle completely but saves on the cost of the perlite. My only consern is if one of the babies worked its way down through or around the grating in the case of just water it would more than likely drown.
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JEMreptiles@gmail.com from sunny AZ.

Lots of cool Ball Pythons along with
0.0.1 Vietnamese Blue Beauty and some great Bull snakes.
1.1 Argentinian Black and White Tegus
1.0 Gotti Pitbull (Tank)
2.0 Beautiful Bengals (Stryker and Cynbad)
12 Tarantulas
Last but most Important 2.2 Children

Day 55 I cut them and put in a different box so that could'nt happen. It works better than any thing I ever used.

Ahh, very good.. I am ocassionally out of town for 2 or 3 at a time so thats a worry for me that you dont have to worry about yourself. I have come home to more than one new clutch pipping that were still just cooking when I let...lol. Have a great season.. Jay
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JEMreptiles@gmail.com from sunny AZ.

Lots of cool Ball Pythons along with
0.0.1 Vietnamese Blue Beauty and some great Bull snakes.
1.1 Argentinian Black and White Tegus
1.0 Gotti Pitbull (Tank)
2.0 Beautiful Bengals (Stryker and Cynbad)
12 Tarantulas
Last but most Important 2.2 Children

Thank you all so much for the wonderful advice and tips. I think I may have managed 3/6 girls by my last look but not counting my eggs before they drop. I'm still not positive exactly which way I will go but I feel I have a greater understanding of what needs to be done to increase my chances of success in incubation.
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1.0 firefly(pos het pied) 1.0 enchi 1.0 super reduced clown 0.1 bumblebee 0.1 mojave 0.1 butter pastel 0.1 spotnose 0.1 pewter 0.1 pastel 0.1 pied 0.1 het pied 0.1 vanilla 0.7 normals