Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Dave, It is Dave isn't it?

I remember back in 2008 when I posted photos of the sunglow motley litter, I believe you were the first to leave a comment.

Here she was back then.

Here she is as of tonight.

I thought you might enjoy this sweet girl also.

I hope you're all having a great season.
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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

This picture:

...shows LOTS of fat rings around the lower third of her body. You can see them start at the top of the picture where her body runs along the tub. You can see more of them just under her head on her tail.

Has this girl been in your care her entire life, or are these "updated pics" from the person you sold her to?

My guess is, based on some of your videos like this: http://youtu.be/4nf9V9pMUP0 , is that she has been in your collection since birth. The MALE in that video was no more than 2 years old (he's an '08 animal and that video was posted in Feb 2010 meaning he couldn't be older than 25 months and was likely less than 2 years old) and was 6' long, easily. Yes, at that time, he "looks" healthy. But the picture above CLEARLY illustrates that the long term impact to feeding SO HEAVILY to obtain such fast growth is extremely detrimental.

Actually... is this her? http://youtu.be/nzQWL8gTK7Y

If that's her, in that video you claim she's 20 months old and an average size for boas at that age in your collection. My boas don't reach that size until after 4 years of age, sometimes 5 or 6 years, and you won't find a single fat ring on my boas.

Brian, I think you're a good guy who's done a lot for this hobby/business, but I think it is OBVIOUS that you overfeed the heck out of your boas. And I think that this is going to SEVERELY shorten the lives of your animals - a fact that you're either naive, or, indifferent about. Neither of which is acceptable, IMO, for someone as tenured in the boa world as you.

Normally, I'd just let the practices of another keeper go if I disagree with them. But in this case, history and the best keeping practices in this industry show us that your animals will NOT live as long as they should, due to your feeding practices. And that's unfair to them and THAT'S why I spoke up.

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

Jonathan,

I couldn't agree with you more. I noticed the fat rings on her about a year ago and have dropped her feeding schedule down tremedously. I'm offering her food about once every 3 weeks now.

For years I fed her once a week to 10 days. but I noticed about a year ago that she was not growing much in length and started showing more in he girth area so I began to slow down her feeding schedule.

I respect and appreciate your comments.

It looks like I need to re-evaluate my feeding technique for boas.

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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

Brian,
I HIGHLY commend and respect you for seeing the impact that such a feeding regimen has had on your boas, and committing to change it.

Personally, I feed with the aim of growing my boas at a rate similar to what thousands upon thousands of years of evolution have deemed to be proper and it is a MUCH more conservative feeding schedule than most in the hobby employ. My boas resemble the body structure of what HEALTHY WC animals have (those who have only recently been captured and imported prior to losing lots of body mass). They're not thin, not fat, and EXTREMELY muscular. For animals up to a year, that's one slightly smaller than girth at midbody rodent every 7-10 days for the first 4-6 months, then every 10-14 days until about a year. After that, my boas get around 18-23 meals per year until adulthood. After that, they're maintenance fed (ie, meals every 14-30 days that are 1/2 to 3/4 the girth of the animal). Breeder females get a year off between litters and males are usually able to go back to back years if needed based on this schedule.

Again, I realize my schedule may seem like a very minimal approach to some, but again, I feel like it probably mimics nature better than most other feeding regimens.

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

JB,

Thanks for your comments, but I could never be that devoted to my feeding schedule.

I think what I'm looking for personally is somewhere between where I was ... and where you are.

For me it's all about ballance. It's the search for it, that drives me to try new things.

I remember years ago having a conversation with my friend Bob Applegate. Bob for those that don't know is one of the most respected colubrid breeders in the world and has held that title for the last 25 years. One day Bob and I were having a conversation about incubating colubrid eggs. Bob was everyone's professor, (he has written several books).

During that conversation Bob and I were talking about the method of egg incubation. Now remember we were still trying to figure this stuff out, in the 1970s. I asked Bob about his technique, Bob explained the whole process. After that conversation I looked up at Bob and asked him "why in the world do you use such an un orthidox method to incubate your eggs, he just looked up at me and said "Well It Works", I said WHAT! He repeated ... and I'll never forget how that moment has impacted just about every decision I have made since. It really didn't matter how he incubated those eggs as long as they hatched. It was so simple, but so profound.

Never Accept Mediochrity, Always Push The Limit

I hope everyone's having a great season.
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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

Thanks for your great post Brian!

As for being devoted to a feeding schedule... I'm actually quite laid back about it and feel it's easier to "feed whenever" as opposed to a more strict 7-10 day schedule. I've literally gone months without feeding my boas (just like it would happen in the wild). All it does is give me more free time (no thawing, feeding, or poop cleaning). Just a thought

Great story about Bob. I'm not a colubrid guy, but even I've heard of him!

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

This is the kind of post/relpy that brings me down and turns me away from forums like this. I can see making general comments about husbandry topics (as separate posts), but to directly confront someone when they are simply trying to share some photos of their passion........ just rude in my opinion. I think this reply would have been more appropriate in a personal message. When I read your reply Jonathan, I felt like I was walking in on a private conversation... it just felt awkward

just my opinion.

very well said. We all feel the same way. Mike Panichi
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Honesty is my only policy
www.mikepanicreptiles.com

what an attack. I know Brian personally, I have received animals from Brian and they were STELLAR. The last time I checked Boas like humans, dont all look alike. Some of them get fat for no good reason and some of them just never grow. Just think about if we all sat there and critiqued every photo you ever posted up or do you only put up your best in here like the rest of these fakies? I'm surprised at you Mr. Brady. Seems like latley, its the thing to do in here.
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Honesty is my only policy
www.mikepanicreptiles.com

Some people choose to step up and confront difficult-to-discuss-issues in the hopes of influencing for the greater good. Others see what needs to change yet choose to simply sit back and do nothing. I'm not the kind of person to do nothing and quite frankly, I could care less what someone thinks if they're a part of the latter group.

I commend Brian for seeing the negative impact his practices have had on his animals and committing to change. That's very admirable and aligns closely with the kind of person I've heard he is and presents himself to be. I just hope that husbandry practices aren't changing too late for his animals.

I chose to confront this so that others could understand that fat rings are a visual cue that something is WAY WAY off, but there are many other invisible maladies (such as liver damage from trying to process all that food and fat, or fat build up around the heart and other vital organs) that will likely be the demise of many overfed animals in our hobby. Again, if that's okay with ANYONE in this hobby, they can exclude themselves from my list of friends/acquaintances and I'll be completely fine with that.

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

Wow Brian they both look really great !

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Lar,

Thanks for the kind words.

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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

I really like that Normal Motley! Is that het for anything?

What are you plans for her?

Thanks for sharing Brian.

Take Care

Ulysses

Ulysses,

It's great to hear from you.

My plans are to sell her, she is not het for anything.

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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

.
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Honesty is my only policy
www.mikepanicreptiles.com

They are looking good.
Mike

Very nice Brian.....wow you got her back in 08 when there weren't too many SGM's. Is she part of your show?

Thanks Derek,

Yeah at the time when she was born I think there were only 3 sunglow motleys in existence.

No I don't take her to my shows. Most of the people that I do my shows for don't know the difference between a sunlgow motley and a gopher snake, so it makes sense for to leave the most valuable snakes at home. The grand fanale' at my shows is either a sunglow boa or my 9 foot long albino Burm. Most of my customers would prefer the Burm.

I hope you're having fun bud.

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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

I been away and didnt see these pics till today.. She is looking big.. And I did notice the fat rolls on her too.. I use to have a sunglow motley from 2008 bred from coral x lipstick but I sold her 2 years ago when I sold my entire boa collection. She had alot of coral and was my favorite animal.. Have you bred her yet? That normal mot, was that produced by shane kinnley.. I had one from him back in 2007 i believe and it had the same colors and was a screamer.. Het lipstick of course.. Take care brian.. Thanks again

No I did not breed her this year. She's barely 6 feet long and only weighs about 8 pounds.

Actually the motley was produced by Chris Nicholas, it's off his orange tail group.

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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com