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just not genetically possible. Since when do Cal. kings ever display any red pigment (erythrin)?????...

They would have to display red pigment in their natural form in order for there to be an anerythristic mutation...

chalk up another major oxymoron to add to the list here......*heavy sigh*

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

>>just not genetically possible. Since when do Cal. kings ever display any red pigment (erythrin)?????...
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>>They would have to display red pigment in their natural form in order for there to be an anerythristic mutation...
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>>chalk up another major oxymoron to add to the list here......*heavy sigh*

Yep...I think the ones that everyone has been calling "anery" are hypomelanistic, but they hatch out black and white. The black ontogenetically reduces......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

"Yep...I think the ones that everyone has been calling "anery" are hypomelanistic, but they hatch out black and white. The black ontogenetically reduces"

Precisely, that is fairly typical of some to do. And even so, that still would never explain how the term "anery" could ever be applied here.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

Maybe the people that call them anery are of the belief anery and axanthic are interchangeable terms. I'm not qualified to argue whether they are right or wrong, but I would never use the term anery for a snake that doesn't display red pigment like Cal kings.
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>>Maybe the people that call them anery are of the belief anery and axanthic are interchangeable terms. I'm not qualified to argue whether they are right or wrong, but I would never use the term anery for a snake that doesn't display red pigment like Cal kings.
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I think you are correct....It's probably just the fact that the folks that call them anery just don't know the true definition of anerythristic.......and they think anery and axanthic are the same thing.......The only pigment that is mutated is melanin....black.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yep, that is the only pigment I see mutated also.
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So are there any Axanthic Cal Kings?
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What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

No, at least there have been none documented. I have yet to see a picture of any. Of course one can always make a hybrid.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

>>No, at least there have been none documented. I have yet to see a picture of any. Of course one can always make a hybrid.

Kerby.....
If you breed a yellow banded coastal phase to a white banded desert phase what does the offspring typically look like?

If you bred those babies together will you get a mix of coastal phase (yellows) and desert phase (whites) offspring? Or will you get an entire clutch of inbetweeners.....cream and dark brown?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Usually yellow dominates white. A lot of those babies will appear white but will yellow up some as they get bigger. I also don't like the terms "coastal" and "desert" in captive breeding as I guess the cal kings in my area might be confused.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

>>Usually yellow dominates white. A lot of those babies will appear white but will yellow up some as they get bigger. I also don't like the terms "coastal" and "desert" in captive breeding as I guess the cal kings in my area might be confused.

Does the yellow dominate the white because the white dilutes the yellow to a lighter yellow or cream? An inbetweener?

Thanks...And I agree with you....I guess I should've just used yellow or white banded....instead of coastal or desert as there are more than just those.....

And I've noticed a bunch of black and white hatchlings turn cream yellow and dark brown......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I've never seen a black and white cal king....ever. I used to have those nice "black" and white cal kings and when you take them out in the sun and take a picture.....well that "black" is really just a dark brown.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

So are there any Axanthic Cal Kings?

Yes, there are axanthic Cal kings. But they are not avaliable to the market yet.

My problem with the two terms anery and axanthic is when does red to to orange and ornage turn to yellow.

I asked Dr. bern bechtel about these terms anery vs axanthic in person twise. he said the terms can be used interchangably- and he wrote the book on snake gentics.

Also it is my opinion that differecing the anery and axanthic in herpettoculture is more simple. Lets say you breed an axanthic Florida king . We all agree that they are axanthic, correct. So lets say you hybridize the axanthic brooksi and breed it to a mostly red snake. Does it now become an anery?

I suggest this arguement because the recessive trait does not change because of what color or pheotype you breed the axanthic into.

You can't change the recessive trait and make it somethings else.

Now there is an anery in Florida kings that has some shades of brown and yellows present. That cannot be changed if you bred it into a mostkly black and white snake- like a black and white calif king. It is still anery!

Anyway, it is a couple things to think about. i would rather keep the recessive traits simple for breeding in herpetoculture instead of speculation on what color a phenotype is.

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www.Bluerosy.com

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>>Yes, there are axanthic Cal kings. But they are not avaliable to the market yet.

I'd like to see one and why it is called axanthic....

>>My problem with the two terms anery and axanthic is when does red to to orange and ornage turn to yellow.

That is an interesting question that I'd like to know the answer to as well...

>>Also it is my opinion that differecing the anery and axanthic in herpettoculture is more simple. Lets say you breed an axanthic Florida king . We all agree that they are axanthic, correct. So lets say you hybridize the axanthic brooksi and breed it to a mostly red snake. Does it now become an anery?
>>I suggest this arguement because the recessive trait does not change because of what color or pheotype you breed the axanthic into.
>>You can't change the recessive trait and make it somethings else.

That is an interesting train of thought. If an axanthic animal is bred to a red animal will their babies produce anything other than normals or will the axanthic trait effect the erythrin in the red animal?

>>Anyway, it is a couple things to think about. i would rather keep the recessive traits simple for breeding in herpetoculture instead of speculation on what color a phenotype is.

But when messing with a snake with only Melanin and Xanthin I still don't think an anery can exist unless hybridized.......These california kings being called anery have a melanin (black) mutation not a red mutation......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I posted a pic here before of a clutch of Cal king axanthic and normals mixed in. But some said they could not tell from the pic. I guess it depends on what resolution computer screen one uses. I can see them quite well and they are blue and he said they are blue like the Floridana axanthics.

Thing is. I know the person who has them and he has been a herper for probably over 35 years. He has been around and people know him.

I spoke with him over a couple years about his axanthic cal kings before i ever saw a pic . I have no reason to doubt him as he is more a old school and field herper than someone trying to make money.

Also since he discovered this trait. It has probably been close to 6 years. Subsequent breedings did produce some more axanthics but sex ratios and him losing key stock has slowed down the breeding efforts.
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www.Bluerosy.com

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But when messing with a snake with only Melanin and Xanthin I still don't think an anery can exist unless hybridized.......These california kings being called anery have a melanin (black) mutation not a red mutation......

I am not familiar with the Anery Cal king people are referring to in this thread.

is this the snake that some people are calling anerythristic?

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www.Bluerosy.com

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I wouldn't even consider that to be a cali king without a head shot....
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www.kingpinreptiles.com

It is a cal king and not was i was referring to as an axanthic. i just think that is the anery that people are referring to in this thread.

To me that is a hypo and not and anery.
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You know you are a novice if you are feeding skinks to a mole king.

www.Bluerosy.com

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that kind of looks like the "platinum" morph... though I haven't seen too many of those to really know what they look like.
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www.kingpinreptiles.com

But when messing with a snake with only Melanin and Xanthin I still don't think an anery can exist unless hybridized.......These california kings being called anery have a melanin (black) mutation not a red mutation......

hveing caught and selectivly bred what people refer to as Balack and white desert kings are not really balck and white. First they do have yellow up their sides and that can be selctivly bred to reduce that yellow pigment on the sides.

Second the balck bands people refer to as black are really brown. or a dark chocolate brown. It just looks like that to the eye.

So back to my question. When does dark brown become chocolate brown and then rust and then a dark red or orange? It is all the same.

But recessive traits should be kept seprate and not determeined by the phenotype or color of the animal. if you breed a T negative cal king to a mostly yellow snake it can appear to be hypo. And so on. it is the SEPERATE arecessive traits we should stick to naming and not allow the phonotype to rule.

So IMO, a anery has some rust, brown, yellow bleeding through. And axanthic will not show signs of this red or yellow pigment. At least not in the extent that an anery does.

BTW, there is a photo in Dr. Bern bectels book of a tri color that he calls axanthic.
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You know you are a novice if you are feeding skinks to a mole king.

www.Bluerosy.com

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testing 1 2 3
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

I completely agree with Doug’s original comment. I can’t stand the name. Makes as much sense as a desert jungle ball python, anaconda hognose, tiger carpets or ghost glades. I posted them on this forum months back. I think I titled the post “hypo type 5”. I remember discussing with Ross and Kerby my frustration with multiple lines/localities of hypo cal that have been available for over 20 years with no market names, distinction etc. I definitely am of the opinion these are another line of hypo, especially now that I’ve seen a few bred to a costal phase (yellow and browns).

One observation I would add is; similar to hypo Pueblans and Hondurans they exhibit a sheen or haze to them. Even after shedding.

I think I’m going to change my classified ad to “2011 pork chop cal’s”

Have you seen the hets? Are they yellow like a coastal phase?
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Thanks for chiming in Jeff. I very much agree and understand what you mentioned there as well.

"pork chop" Cal. kings..LOL!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"