Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I had been suspecting that Zuni was actually a male as he had never been comfortable in the trio cage with Zane and Zafina, not nesting with the other two and in general hiding. So I put him in his own cage, then when breeding season started tried putting him in with my male Zane. Zane was not the gentle suitor he was with the females, instead attacking him, biting and trying to drive him off (pretty hard to do in a tub). Poor Zuni! He was like, WTF! Zane was not a happy camper, either.

Hence an experiment:

Zuni and Dotz this morning. Obviously Zuni is a male! He tried all morning to get Dotz to mate but she has not been receptive so far. She is a proven female.

Zuni and Zunchara later this morning. Although Zunchara had mated with Zane a week ago I put her in with Zuni and they locked up right away, a good solid lock. Afterwards he was very relieved, content to go under his hide and rest. If he smoked he would have had a cigarette! LOL!

I am not disappointed that Zuni is a male. The breeder offered to exchange him for another female, but I like this little snake, and besides it is nice to have another adult male. I do feel a bit embarrassed that it took me this long to figure this gender thing out, but now I can tease my friend the breeder who had been doing snake breeding for decades!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

WOW...for not doing any breeding this year you sure are pairing up alot of snakes......LOL

And I always used to say...You will never be 100% confident of their gender until you pair them up.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I have to agree John! I have a female Grayband that I would have bet my life was a male. I probed her and the probe sunk in deep!!!! I didn't count the scales but it was DEEP! Brandon re-assured me that she was a she, and that he got eggs from her last year. I am also pterry sure she is gravid. This really makes me very cautios from now on. Even probing is not 100%! It's the best we have, but still not 100%. Now if you can pop a snake and see it's hemi's then, that is pretty obvious, but if no hemi's pop out, there is still a doubt.
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What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

>>I have to agree John! I have a female Grayband that I would have bet my life was a male. I probed her and the probe sunk in deep!!!! I didn't count the scales but it was DEEP! Brandon re-assured me that she was a she, and that he got eggs from her last year. I am also pterry sure she is gravid. This really makes me very cautios from now on. Even probing is not 100%! It's the best we have, but still not 100%. Now if you can pop a snake and see it's hemi's then, that is pretty obvious, but if no hemi's pop out, there is still a doubt.

Yea...I have a male leonis that was sold to me as a female. I probed "her" and she probed 3 scales....All of my other male leonis probe around 7 scales or so....So I named her Annie.

After putting Annie in with a male I had to separate them because the male attacked "her".....I put "her" in with a female and Annie was renamed Andy.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John, I have a female coast animal that the probe will sink into also, however, it was disclosed to me by the breeder that his assistant pushed too hard on the probe when she was young and "broke the barrier" so to speak. She still has no problem with breeding but if she was to be probed you would think you have a male. Folks have to be real careful not to push too hard when probing young snakes.

Joe

I have often wondered if that would be possible. I can see that happening. I usually don't probe babies, if I can help it. Sometimes it's just not possible to pop tails on some snakes.
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What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

I pop them, and it is there is no doubt when you have a male, as you know, but the females I am not sure about I will probe when they get larger.

Joe

>>John, I have a female coast animal that the probe will sink into also, however, it was disclosed to me by the breeder that his assistant pushed too hard on the probe when she was young and "broke the barrier" so to speak. She still has no problem with breeding but if she was to be probed you would think you have a male. Folks have to be real careful not to push too hard when probing young snakes.
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But Annie probed shallow and was a male.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I guess Annie was not "well hung" . LOL Yeah, I guess the bottom line is there will always be exceptions to every rule, as we all find out sooner or later!

Joe

John, one more thing. I usually have my buddy Mark along for the sexing task and on more occassion then one we have caught mistakes each other has made. I remember sexing one of my snakes as female but the tail looked very male. I went down two probe sizes and it went right down. Anyway, once again, mistakes will always be made and if my buddy was not there to catch some of mine I would have sexed several wrong this year alone!!

Joe

>>John, one more thing. I usually have my buddy Mark along for the sexing task and on more occassion then one we have caught mistakes each other has made. I remember sexing one of my snakes as female but the tail looked very male. I went down two probe sizes and it went right down. Anyway, once again, mistakes will always be made and if my buddy was not there to catch some of mine I would have sexed several wrong this year alone!!
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>>Joe

Yep, but pairing them up is a sure-fire way.....lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

True, but Joe's way can save having to find out the hard way in two or three years..LOL!

I am probably right by looking at their tails maybe 96-97% of the time, and will always verify this by popping afterwards, but I have also been wrong a couple times over the years like everyone has been in the past given enough time. I also pop youngsters again just prior to shipping them to make EXTRA sure that customers get the corrct sex they were supposed to. I'm glad it is extremely rare for me to make a sexing mistake, but Jorge will tell you that when he came over to get a king hatchling a couple years ago, when I sexed the "alleged" female again of the 1.1. pair he was supposed to get, out popped the hemipenes this time......I was like....huh?,..WWWTF???...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

LOL. Yeah, I bet that was a shocker Doug!! Sometimes they just won't pull their pants down will they. With Getula the tail is NORMALLY the give-away, true, but pyros and Mt. Kings throw a whole new potential screw up into the mix for sure. Doug, I can't tell you how many times a have re-popped a "female" and seen the goods pop out!! LOL

LOL!,......yeah, it really threw me for a freakin' loop Joe, and it was very disappointing and embarrassing having him drive all the way over to be let down like that..LOL!. Yeah, lots of different types of kings, milks, rats, boas, corns and other stuff under the belt, but I can't say I can remember ever popping any pyros personally. Do they seem to be a bit more problematic from other's you have talked to as well Joe?........weird!..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

Doug, I don't think they are any harder to pop, I just think they are MUCH harder to tell apart by looking at the tail alone. I have an adult female pyro that I would swear was male by looking at the long, slow tapering tail. Hell, when I go herping and catch eastern kings you can take one look at their tails and be 99 percent sure of what you are holding and can 100 percent sure you are going to get a handfull of musk!!

Joe

Yeah, I definitely know what ya mean bro. I run into those odd balls too from time to time, and have a big proven female Hondo here that you would swear was a male just looking at her exceptionally long fat tail as well. It's funny how they can have very different builds compared to their sex now and then..LOL!

In nature there seems to be exceptions to just about every single thing imaginable..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

Hey Doug, it was my pleasure driving out that way, and meeting you in person. I also got a chance to check out your awesome collection, and you made up for it with this gorgeous girl!

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What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

Good night.........that thing is AWESOME!
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Genesis 1:1

Yeah man, we had a great time and I'm glad you did come by as well.

Wow dude!. Her red sure DID change into a strong golden/yellow!!!

Thanks for posting a pic of her Jorge. I've been wanting to see how she has changed so far since you got her, and she looks incredible!!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

Holy smokes Jorge, that is one beautiful animal. Can't imagine what she is going to look like when she is done changing. Jeeeez.

Joe

WOW...for not doing any breeding this year you sure are pairing up alot of snakes......LOL

And I always used to say...You will never be 100% confident of their gender until you pair them up.....LOL
My friend the breeder said if you don't play the lottery you can't win, so I thought what the heck, may as well try. Besides, it is easier to resist eating double fudge cake and Denali's Mint Moose Tracks ice cream (household favorites!) than to resist breeding my snakes. I don't have to bring the food treats home, but the snakes are right there in front of me 24/7!

Last year's treats! LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

LOL. Don't be embarassed. I did the same thing with a Parviruba two years ago. Kept putting the pair together and actually saw what I now know was just good old fashion prison rape. Poor guy. Both males as I figured out. The supposed female was sold to me by a respected breeder. Everyone can make mistakes. I now probe all my pairs.

Joe

>>LOL. Don't be embarassed. I did the same thing with a Parviruba two years ago. Kept putting the pair together and actually saw what I now know was just good old fashion prison rape. Poor guy. Both males as I figured out. The supposed female was sold to me by a respected breeder. Everyone can make mistakes. I now probe all my pairs.
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In my personal experience probing still isn't the best way to know...LOL
Read the story I posted above about Annie/Andy....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

A thing I have noticed with my pyros is the females are built different than the males, plumper and rounder upon reaching maturity. Even my pituophis show this. Not as dependable as probing, but seems to be proving out in my snakes.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Do not be embarassed one bit Bob.

Mis-sexed snakes happens more than you think.
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Genesis 1:1

It happens WAAAAY more than one might think!

The important thing is keeping it to an extreme minimum over time..

Nobody that has ever done this for any real length of time has been correct 100% of the time........nobody!

And if they think they have, it's only because they don't know about the times they were ever wrong..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"