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I know recently there has been a heated debate on whether there ever has been an axantic/anery cal king. Here's a photo I found of what looks like clutch mates from Mr.Lemke. Anyone care to elaborate on this photo and whether it has been dis-proven/proven to be a recessive trait?

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Nice find! I may have to break out my huge box of old Vivariums and have a look. I used to have them on my book shelf, but the collection got so huge with the Reptiles Mag afterward that I boxed them up.
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What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

Dig them out, I always find some interesting stuff in the old ones. I haven't even touched some of the old R&A magazines yet.
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>>I know recently there has been a heated debate on whether there ever has been an axantic/anery cal king. Here's a photo I found of what looks like clutch mates from Mr.Lemke. Anyone care to elaborate on this photo and whether it has been dis-proven/proven to be a recessive trait?

Yep...the red is missing on both...They are both anery..LOL
I believe back then folks like Lloyd and others called anything that was black and white anery....Since the first aneries were corns......

I still can't bring myself to call a snake that normally never has red and is normally black and white or brown and yellow anerythristic morph.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I still can't bring myself to call a snake that normally never has red and is normally black and white or brown and yellow anerythristic morph.

Agreed, but what about axanthic?
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>>I still can't bring myself to call a snake that normally never has red and is normally black and white or brown and yellow anerythristic morph.
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>>Agreed, but what about axanthic?
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Yes I think missing yellow is axanthic but that is a hard call for a cal king that has a naturally occuring morph that has no yellow....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

"Yep...the red is missing on both...They are both anery..LOL
I believe back then folks like Lloyd and others called anything that was black and white anery....Since the first aneries were corns......

I still can't bring myself to call a snake that normally never has red and is normally black and white or brown and yellow anerythristic morph"

Ditto to ALL the above John!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

Well, IMO, from the looks alone, that photo doesn't show anything more than variation in the intensity of white. Who knows what the parents looked like or their history. But, that is still very interesting and Loyd was a well known breeder. Was there anything written about them? And thanks for the photo.

Was there anything written about them?

No, just the photo in the center spread of the article.... I thought it was something good to share....
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Yeah, that's cool anyway.

There is another photo I will post later of a San Joaquin Valley cal king that just rocks....
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Cool, man. Thanks.

>>There is another photo I will post later of a San Joaquin Valley cal king that just rocks....
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What are you waiting on????
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>I know recently there has been a heated debate on whether there ever has been an axantic/anery cal king. Here's a photo I found of what looks like clutch mates from Mr.Lemke. Anyone care to elaborate on this photo and whether it has been dis-proven/proven to be a recessive trait?
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Maybe he called it anery because the entire clutch of bananas were yellow except this one. That is how the confusion with Davy's and Jim Minesinger's started......All neonates were yellow except a few that were white so they called them axanthic or anery.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yeah, exactly. That's why people need to prove things out before claiming anything by looks, especially if you are selling them.

Was Lemke selling them as anery at the time of the photo? or was it just a photo to show the difference in coloration? Does any one know if Lemke was selling these as anery?
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"Does any one know if Lemke was selling these as anery?"

I think he drove around the entire desert region letting countless thousands of them go back in the day. Now they are simply called "Desert phase" Cal. kings..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

I always wondered why there were white and yellow banded kings. Thanks! lol

I don't know if he was selling them, but I was referring to the guys John was talking about.

I don't think Lloyd ever got the project off the ground enough to offer any for sale. I heard that all the animals involved got confiscated by CAF&G in Operation King-Rosy and they killed them with neglect. They took all his CA non-albino natives as well as his AZ locality rosy boas and a bunch died before the trial was over. Lloyd beat the charges and eventually won a large settlement from CAF&G for them killing his animals and losses to his business. I heard the settlement was rumored to be $125,000.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Thanks Aaron, that is very interesting to know. I guess CA F&G learned their lesson on that one. Do you know when they confiscated Lemke's animals?
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I hope Davy and Jim aren't ever on a jury panel where someone's life might be on the line with their decisions (assumptions)..LMAO!!

My green floridana that didn't have any red at all when she hatched like all the other clutchmates did is also apparently an anerythristic too I guess..LOL!

WAIT!!!!, or is that AXANTHIC!???...LMAO!!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

"My green floridana that didn't have any red at all when she hatched like all the other clutchmates did is also apparently an anerythristic too I guess..LOL!

WAIT!!!!, or is that AXANTHIC!???...LMAO!!! "

It doesn't matter because both terms are interchangeable.

>>It doesn't matter because both terms are interchangeable.

I think even Dr. Bechtel was wrong when he stated that.....But he's a doctor and all so we should listen to him.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I think when Rainer very briefly talked to Bechtel about this, Bechtel may have drastically over-simplified it for conversations sake to Rainer and actually meant that it can "sometimes" be used interchangeably, but only in certain cercumstances.

As we both know, Yellow doesn't mean red, and red doesn't mean yellow.....and never did...LOL!

The whole misconception lies with the xanthophores being responsible for producing both red and yellow pigments. And I have a feeling that id Bechtel did know the differences himself, he may have simply left out the part about axanthophores produce red and yellow pigments known as pteridines. And that they can vary in color from pure yellow to pure red, as well as any intermediate shades in between. Or that xanthophores that possess a predominantly red coloration are referred to as erythrophores.

I can almost guarantee Bechtel didn't get into any of this stuff real deep at all and probably wanted to just go about his business at the show when it was brought up briefly in front of the table at Daytona.

Like I said, if this is truly the case and the terms are interchangeable, then my very green/yellow Florida king is anerythristic AND axanthic even though she displayed ZERO red pigment, but plenty of yellow coloration..HAHAHA!!

In my opinion, only if a certain type of snake naturally displays BOTH reds and yellows (i.e. shades of orange too), and it is missing BOTH of these colorssuch as with what are known as anery and axanthic Florida kings, only then could you even consider using the terms interchangeably. This is what I think Bechtel may have meant. I think he just kept it extremely basic that day if he did know the difference.

I think the so-called "anery" floridana are nothing more than a slightly different strain of axanthism. Because if they were true anerythristics, the snakes would only naturally display browns and pure red, never any yellows.

Rainer walking up to Bechtel and hashing all of these intricacies out would be like me walking up to "Big Daddy" Don Garlits at a drag racing event, ask him a couple quick/brief questions, and go back home thinking I knew all there was to know about drag racing engines..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

Yep...you could be right..
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Actually Dr bechtel came a spent time at my table 2 years in a row. The first time i asked these questions I thought he was trying to over simplify. The follwing year he spent a lot more time and we talked for about 30 minutes. I asked him to explain the anwers i got last year.

Check his book. He even lists tricolors as axanthics.

IMO and for the hobby sake. it would be better to call an axanthic based on the gene rather than the color of the original animal. If you bred a axanthic Florida to a red ratsnake and then bred it back again to create more red phenotypes. It would still be better to call the trait axanthic since that is where the genes came from. That has been my arguemnet from the beginning.

Oh and I spent many years with Sonny and Lloyd. i worked during the summer months cleaning and maintaining their collection. So i personally handled everything he had and was working on. That Black and white cal king is not axanthic. I never recalled him calling them that. The whole axanthic or anery thing sound more like Hubbs (LOL!) Back then it was a race to see who could breed out the yellow on Cal kings. FR could (if he was still here) tell a lot more about that as well. So i guess he left ya'll to play with yourselves.
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www.Bluerosy.com

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Yup, it's gospel if a "Dr." daid it.

"Bacon causes cancer"

"Coffee stunts your growth"

"You will go bind......"

Yada yada. I have a bachelor and a masters degree and almost got my doctorate degree.....then I would be gospel.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

......very much agreed!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

I think even Dr. Bechtel was wrong when he stated that.....But he's a doctor and all so we should listen to him.....

I think his piont was these are just names and not science.

So far we have the axanthic trait which is blue. The anery has some yellow bleeding through. And then the Cal kings and Ball pythons are all so screwed up with the gentic names nothing is straight across the board. And it should be for the hobbiest.

Look at florida kings. When babies hatch they have a lot of red (some more than others), then they turn orange, then yellow. When does the orange turn to yellow? When does red turn to orange? Should that change the name of the recessive trait?
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www.Bluerosy.com

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>>I think even Dr. Bechtel was wrong when he stated that.....But he's a doctor and all so we should listen to him.....
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>>I think his piont was these are just names and not science.
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>>So far we have the axanthic trait which is blue. The anery has some yellow bleeding through. And then the Cal kings and Ball pythons are all so screwed up with the gentic names nothing is straight across the board. And it should be for the hobbiest.
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>>Look at florida kings. When babies hatch they have a lot of red (some more than others), then they turn orange, then yellow. When does the orange turn to yellow? When does red turn to orange? Should that change the name of the recessive trait?

Look at Hondos.....They follow the scientific nomenclature.....
The Floridana breeders (you included...lol) seem to just use the terms as labels more than breeders of other species/subspecies. I think it's because a Floridana's colors aren't as straight forward as most king snakes. And they do change ontogenetically unlike most king snakes....
I've always stated that a "hypo" Floridana doesn't even look Hypomelanistic to me....it still has black on it typically.....
Maybe its just Hyperaxanthic......Like the Sulfurs......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Hyperaxanthic? lol
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>>Hyperaxanthic? lol
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LOL....
OOPS...
Hyperxanthic......Without the "a"......

Good catch Ross...You are a genetics wizard now.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

hahaha Yeah, because of you guys. A mistake we all make, probably because we hardly ever use the term xanthic.
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..just like hypomelanism and amelanism are interchangeable...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

Yeah, just like corn snake and king snake are too.......lol!!!!!!
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Gerard

"Ten minutes to wapner..."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I only knew Lloyd from my own personal conversations with him........but in 1997 at the IRBA show in San Diego I was wanting to buy some pyros from Lloyd at his booth. When I mentioned to him that I was from Arizona and I could not sell pyros from Arizona (even if I bought them in California)....Lloyd got his marker out and marked the containers "New Mexico" pyros and even wrote that on my receipt. I still have that receipt. I never did sell any of those babies because I knew they weren't from New Mexico.

But it just goes to show how quick a "label" can occur for the end result of a sale. Lloyd would have called them anything just to make a sale.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

Yeah, I can definitely believe that happened Kerby. That sort of thing happens all the time as we both already know.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

I think he did that more as a favor for you and has no point in this discussion. .
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www.Bluerosy.com

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>>I think he did that more as a favor for you and has no point in this discussion. .

I agree.....but there is still no such thing as a KNOWN anery californiae.......lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

...how do you get anerythristic in an animal that has no red to begin with?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

>>...how do you get anerythristic in an animal that has no red to begin with?

That is the whole question.....A Calking, Desert King or Speckled King cannot ever be anery.....They can be axanthic, but with Calkings having both black/brown and yellow/white bands how do we know a calking with white bands is axanthic or just a desert phase?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...