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I'm setting up my tank in preparation for a new milksnake of some variety. I want some advice on the temperatures.

Our apartment has central air and I live in Florida. During the day we keep it set around 77-80F. At night, it rarely, if ever drops below 70F. A few nights through the winter it got down to 68 (got colder than I expected).

We used to keep the apartment cooler, and then used a heat lamp or heating pad for our corns so they could have a gradiant.

But for the past couple of months we've just given them no heat or gradiant during the day because the ambient air temp has been 77 , and only at night turning on the heating pads so there is a warm spot if they want it.

Would this be safe option for a baby milksnake or adult milksnake?

The second question is this. Our corns don't burrow much, and the heating pads are weak enough they don't get super warm (I've checked with a thermometer). The heating pad for the bigger tanks are higher watt and I keep them in check with a dimmer switch. The heat pad for the milk snake was reaching 107F. What is the absolute maximum temperature you deem safe for a milk snake?

Anything over 100F makes me uncomfortable. I rationalize 100F because with a inch or so of substrate the temp on top is closer to 80F (verified with thermometer) and I figure 100F can't burn an animal, that's only a 1-2 degrees warmer than my hands.

But, it seems like milks burrow more and might be at higher risk of hanging out at 100 degree temps. So what is the highest safest temp at the glass, that will still keep the surface temp up?

Some people have told me to ditch the substrate, use newspaper, and set it so the newspaper level temp is more than 92 or so, but I am stubborn really like my natural looking substrate.

Do you enjoy asking the questions that have no easy answers?

Temps all depend on which milk you decide to get but for all of them 100 degrees is too much... some milks such as Black Milks or Andeans would even find your background temps of 77-80 a little too much. Your night time low is acceptable for all IMO especially since you do offer a warm spot with the under tank heaters should they choose to seek it out.

Definative answers for the best temps for a given milk snake subspecies are hard to come by here. What I've done for the few milk species I have is use the web site I've included a link to below. There's a menu along the left hand side that is fairly self explanatory. From the "World" menu pick Central America... depending on which country you pick you'll have the option of choosing among several cities... useful if you have locality data on the milk snake you're thinking about... along the top are the usual tabs... the one you want to look at is the climate tab... it has a drop down menu... choose graphs... if I've explained all this correctly you should now be looking at a graph with the average high and low temps for that area... off on the right hand side you should be seeing options to view items such as the forecast, Current weather etc. All that information should give you a good idea on where to start for temperatures for any given milk.

As long as you're not planning on breeding these milk snakes I'd keep things within the average range for highs and lows. From there observe the milks behaviour... does it spend most of it's time in the high end range you've provided or at the low range... tweek the temperatures accordingly.

Knowing the snakes you're looking at I'd say go with the hondo's or polyzona's as both would do well in the temperature range you keep your apartment at. I have both those species, both have been offered hides in areas from the mid 70's to mid 80's... over time both have seemed to prefer temps in the high 70's.

Gerry
Link

Are you using a dimmer or other temperature controller? Yeah, milks typically do not like warm temps above 85 or so. I am generalizing, but it is a good generalization. Many are fine at 78 deg.

You could do side heat like this snake's tank. If the room is already in the 70s then side heat is safe and easy.

Yes, I'm using a dimmer.

I have found that if I set the "at the glass" temp to something like 97, then the substrate level temp is 86 or so. It seems like about a 10 degree difference. So I need to have my glass temp closer to 92 so the substrate level will be in the low 80s.

Yeah, 92 may be too hot as an ambient air temp, but I'm also talking about placing the temp probe right on the glass. So he or she may not like the the 92F temp, and could move to cooler regions, and at least he or she won't get burned if they don't feel like moving.

For my BP, as an example, the "at the glass" temp is 98F, but she never burrows down there. The temp at the substrate level where she slithers around is always betwee 82 and 86F. It changes a bit depending on the thickness of the substrate. But, I know that if she's feeling ambitious and decides to burrow all of the way down and press herself against the bottom of the tank, even 98F should not burn her. (although, I really don't know. I've never seen a study of burn temperatures on animals)

Oh yes and thank you both for your answers.

I have also found my corns prefer the upper 70s hide spots as well.

Asking the tough questions has gotten me to where I am today....so I keep on asking them.

I think I'm going to try to get locally bred female hypo tangerine hondo. Not until early June though so I have some time to sort things out.

Things came a bit earlier than expected.

It turns out for our schedules today was the best time to purchase a snake, and the local breeder had one left over from last fall. So I'm the proud new owner of a hypo tangerine male hondo. I'll post pictures later if anybody wants to see him.

I'm pretty sure that he is at least partially Honduran because the typical M shaped band on the chin. I was told he is a pure Honduran, and I see no reason to suspect otherwise at the moment.

As far as the heating pad, I ended up turning it down even more. The warm side at the mulch level last night was 77F, and we had the apartment cooler than normal. I think at the glass the temp is closer to 87F, which is probably alot safer than the previous 92F I was going for.

I feel like a member of the club now. I'm very happy.

Congrats on your new Hondo... please do post some pictures so we can all see what has you so thrilled

Gerry

Very cool you are thinking about adding a nice hypo tangerine to your collection. However, allow me to point out and clarify a few things regarding your comment on the "M" pattern on the snake's chin......

Your snake probably is only "part" L.t.hondurensis like you mentioned, even though it probably keys-out absolutely fine meristic-wise as a L.t.hondurensis. This is actually no different than the VAST majority of the countless hundreds of thousands of them out in the hobby mainstream today either, including the on'es I have in my collection too. Some of the specific percetages will always vary of course too depending on what their previous parental lineage consisted of, and whatever someone decided to breed them to as well as time went on and they exchanged hands. Heck, the vast majority out there are "partly" authentic hondurensis, that's really just an automatic given. If you click on my site at the bottom of my signature, there on the home page is a detailed explanation of todays "Hobby Hondos" and how they actually evolved to what they are in today's hobby. L.t.hondurensis is only one portion of their genetic equation to be quite honest.

There is only TWO known authentic L.t.hondurensis bloodlines known to exist in the hobby today. One is a very old generic tangerine bloodline that was NEVER out-crossed to all the countless other bloodlines and morphs, and the other is a known bloodline from central Nicaragua (also shown in the Hondo blog we did). Except there are only a few of Scott's authentic central Nicaraguan bloodline out there in the hobby......and I do mean ......VERY FEW!!!. As a matter of fact, the forum poster Gerry (username gerryg) that just recently posted has a couple of Scott Ballard's central Nicaraguan L.t.hondurensis.

The chin pattern/shape in the Central/Latin milks can be quite variable and extremely similar in several of the tropical milks too, so just because a milksnake happens to basically display a similar looking chin doesn't necessarily mean anything as to it's genuine subspecific authenticity. There's just no way to go solely by what a chin does or doesn't look like. Meristic science is more of the combining of as many of the key characteristics and features you see, along with certain scale counts to get a full overall conclusion of what subspecies something might actually be. But when they are so damn mixed up with several subspecies as they have always historically been for decades now, there is simply just NO WAY to identify what most of them actually consist of.

I am quite sure that the very first so-called "tangerine dream" Hondurans that Bill Love acquired from a lady in Miami back in the 80's that imported them from here place of origin (Honduras) were in fact true L.t.hondurensis, even though she had them labeled as "coral snakes"..LOL!, but since those times they have all been crossed into countless other intergrade combinations. So unless some of those were never out-crossed, those are definitely no longer un-compromised either and are just like all the others out there, i.e "hobby Hondos"

Anyway, the chin pattern alone is by NO means any solid indicator of authentic L.t.hondurensis "purity" just because it resembles an "M".

Even the old anerythristic specimen I used to depict the "M" pattern in the blog Ross and I did recently very likely had other ssp. influence in it. I strongly suspect L.t.stuarti and polyzona was involved with these early old-school anery's from many years ago, but no way of literally proving this in court..LOL! I can only surmise and assume this from the phenotype characteristics I have seen in many of the offspring I produced from the older original line years ago that Brian Barczyk had in the 90's, as well as what many other anery's looked like, especially in the earlier years. It's just an automatic given that they were bred to almost any other Latin type milk resembling a "hondo" of any kind back then anyway so more of these could be produced.

I am thinking that some folks that see the blog and compare it with any type of "M" pattern on their hobby type Hondos will think they have truly athentic L.t.hondurensis, when that is definitely not the actual case at all. I only used that photo because it is indeed a very typical look for L.t.hondurensis to display, but by no means is the only look they can display on their chins. It is also very similar to the holotype animal illustration used in ~Systematics~ by Kenneth L. Williams, that's all. It wasn't in the blog to portray that my anery was a 100% genuine L.t. hondurensis by ANY stretch of the imagination. I was merely depicting what many classic Honduran chins do look like, nothing more. There are many other things that have to be considered as well.

Anyway, best of luck with getting your nice Hobby Hondo, but just don't ever consider them as 100% authentic L.t.hondurensis.

If you click on my site below there in my signature and scroll down a bit on the home page, you will find a detailed history of how these snakes have evolved into what they are today. It's entitled "about Honduran milksnakes in the hobby:"

cheers, ~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

You know way too much about milk snakes.

I guess I should say I have a "milk snake". It was sold to me as a Honduran, but I don't really know what it is.

It was also sold to me as a hypo hondo, but it may not be that either.

I am more sure of what it is isn't than what it is.
I know it isn't a kingsnake.
I know it isn't a coral snake.
I know it isn't a dragon.
I know it isn't a pure sinaloan.
I know it isn't a L.t. oligozona
Etc.

I had a "sinaloan" as a child. I loved him (or her). It escaped twice from the "escape proof" sliding top tanks. I hope this new guy doesn't go Houdini on me.

The new guy ate this morning so pictures will have to wait. Maybe this weekend. He's still really skiddish, so trying to get a steady shot might be hard.