Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Thanks for all the input on my previous post. I appreciate all the comments/info. I was hoping to respond to everyone's post individually. Hopefully everyone can see this post.

Due to this some what controversial subject. And I know that everyone is doing what is best for there situation. I thought I would give you more information on my set up. Because the more info I get from Y'all, the better herper I will be for the optimal living environment for my snakes.

I have four California Kings, banded, stripped, rev,. Two Mandarin Rats. The Rats are together in one tank and do not have heat at this time. I am thinking about giving them an even bigger tank and putting heat on one side to at least offer them heat if they need it. Because I am having feeding problems with them right now.

Back to my cal kings. I am currently using the "Zoomed" brand of adhesive heat pad. Someone suggested a thermostat on one heat pad to regulate all six heat pads. No offence intended, but I don't think that will work because the three heat pads I have on the bottom of the tank (same brand, same size) all put off different heat. On one there is a 20 to 30 degree heat difference. Maybe it is the brand/Quality of the heat pads. ?? not sure.

I am using 20L gal tanks with aspen substrate and a moist moss hide on cool side and dry moss hide on heat side. I elevate them with stone coasters like you would put a drinking glass on. About 1/2in. high. I plan on doubling up on the coasters for a 1inch height. Until I can get my rack built.

On the tank with the heat pad on the lower side of the side glass, I do have the substrate deeper, about 4 inches or more, covering up about half the heat pad.

Unfortunately I don't have a herp room. All my snakes are in my bedroom. The temp stays no cooler than 70 and not hotter than 72. Feeding my snakes year round right now and not breeding yet. I plan on building two costume rack about five tanks high each, in the near future.

Just to throw my two cents in on the thriving thing. (which I know better) But, I think that if you are giving them everything they need, everything they would have in the wild and More, they are thriving...I will never use tubs, so I probably will not get very big with this. Don't get me wrong, I know this is business and pleasure for some people and you can only be practical in the way you keep a lot of snakes. I love that my snakes are in glass and in a highly traveled area. I think they feel free and they have gotten use to us passing by all the time so their demeanor is great.

I hope I have covered everything. Keep filling me with knowledge.

Thanks Again.

DAVY

Davy, maybe your heat pad overheated because your tank is laying directly on top of it and not allowing any excessive heat to escape. Have you tried elevating your tanks about a half an inch to let that heat escape? You could do this by crazy glueing something about a half inch thick on the bottom of each four corners of the tank. Or put two small boards a half inch thick under the right and left side to elevate it a bit. Do you have a temp gun or something to measure the heat on the glass inside the cage? If so, what are the temps foe each cage? I haven't read all the posts, so if this has already been covered, disregard.
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I do have a Fluke laser gun. Not that that means that my temps are more accurate than any body else's. I am a A/C guy and I know they can be "off" just like anything else. Just because it is a "LASER" they are not as accurate as people think. But they can be more consistent across the board. Gives you a good starting point.

Here is my temp evaluation.

House no a/c or heat on. Windows open. Pretty day out side

Room Temp 73 to 76 around the room

Tank 1 bottom heat
cool side 73 to 74
heat side 80 to 89 across the substrate
shoot heat pad through glass on BOTTOM of tank 130

Tank 2 bottom heat
cool side 73 to 74
heat side 79 to 88 across the substrate
shoot heat pad through glass on BOTTOM of tank 137

Tank 3 side heat
cool side 73 to 74
heat side 77 to 85 across the substrate
shoot heat pad through glass on SIDE of tank 108

That test tells me that the side heat pad does not get as hot as the bottom.

DAVY

130 and 137 is pretty hot. I had one of those heat pads about ten years ago and it did get hot like that. I had sand as the substrate, so the snake probably never came into contact with the bottom glass. I would definitely elevate the cages a bit at the very least. Personally, those temps kind of scare me. I'd try to get a thermostat or change to something else. Maybe someone could give you some better suggestions. Good luck!
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Thanks

DAVY

you definetely need heat tape if your room is 72F.

As far as this being touchy subject. yes it is for some. Because they have been proven wrong and can't get over the embarassment from a couple years ago.
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1) Do you beleive what you observe or observe what you beleive?

www.Bluerosy.com

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OK maybe a stupid question but are you telling me to get heat tape instead of heat pad. Or are they the same thing and you are talking about heat for my rats?

DAVY

"OK maybe a stupid question but are you telling me to get heat tape instead of heat pad."

heat pad or heat tape. Whatever setup you have (shelving, aquarium) and what works.

"Or are they the same thing and you are talking about heat for my rats?"

"Ratsnakes"..."rats" when coupled in a sentence with colubrids such as i used with kings, milks, rats .. means ratsnakes. Kinda like Balls means Ball pythons. It is just shorthand.
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1) Do you beleive what you observe or observe what you beleive?

www.Bluerosy.com

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>>Just to throw my two cents in on the thriving thing. (which I know better) But, I think that if you are giving them everything they need, everything they would have in the wild and More, they are thriving...I will never use tubs, so I probably will not get very big with this. Don't get me wrong, I know this is business and pleasure for some people and you can only be practical in the way you keep a lot of snakes. I love that my snakes are in glass and in a highly traveled area. I think they feel free and they have gotten use to us passing by all the time so their demeanor is great.

The only thing I'd like to add here is that we can NEVER provide better than the wild. We can guarantee a meal better than the wild, but our husbandry can never replicate the wild.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I totally agree with you. I like keeping snakes but there is a reason they call it captive breed. Captive is not a nice word by definition. But at least they know nothing except the happiness that we can give them. That is why I let my black racer go, because he know what it felt like to be truly free. I felt like I took that away from him. I really loved that snake. Man, that sounds like my wife is rubbing off on me. LOL

DAVY

The only thing I'd like to add here is that we can NEVER provide better than the wild. We can guarantee a meal better than the wild, but our husbandry can never replicate the wild.

I don't know if i fully agree with that statement. As FR has said before snakes in captivity live longer and safer lives and probably reproduce more and are overall heathier.
The exception being in the wild a snake can choose it warmth and humidity.

Humidity is an aspect that would be more difficult to emulate in a box.

Let me ask you this. how often do wild snakes drink per year? How much do your snakes drink per week in your enclosers? If they are anything like mine they will empty a bowl of water in no time. ..

So how many times do wild snakes actually DRINK? They certainly don't all cruise down to a lake or river at night by the thousands like a heard of buffalo.

. Ever see snakes in dry chaparell or desert? Or even snakes that are far away from a constant water source (of course Florida snakes and water snakes ect don't count here) but most kings and milks are nowhere near water. Most live in very arid habitat in very dry geographical locations. Where do they drink? When do they drink water? Frown the dew left on leaves in teh moring Even is dry areas in the west and midwest there is no morning dew.

What they do is probably get a 5-6 handfull of water from rain to drink from per year. The rest of the time they are conserving water by coiling up in tight places and seeking damp tunnels ect.

i just had a girl contact me a few minutes ago that i sold a florida king to. She said it is curled up in a small log in her giant 40 gallon aquarium and she can't get it out and it has not come out in 3 days. I asked her if she uses overhead light, and she does. So what the snake is doing is trying to conserve moisture by building it up in that little log by craming itself into a little ball..
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1) Do you beleive what you observe or observe what you beleive?

www.Bluerosy.com

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>>The only thing I'd like to add here is that we can NEVER provide better than the wild. We can guarantee a meal better than the wild, but our husbandry can never replicate the wild.
>>
>>I don't know if i fully agree with that statement. As FR has said before snakes in captivity live longer and safer lives and probably reproduce more and are overall heathier.
>>The exception being in the wild a snake can choose it warmth and humidity.

I'd have to agree with you here Rainer....I could've stated that reply to Davy differently. Optimally kept captives will outlive their wild counterparts but we cannot emulate the wild perfectly....

>>Humidity is an aspect that would be more difficult to emulate in a box.
>>
>>Let me ask you this. how often do wild snakes drink per year? How much do your snakes drink per week in your enclosers? If they are anything like mine they will empty a bowl of water in no time. ..
>>
>>So how many times do wild snakes actually DRINK? They certainly don't all cruise down to a lake or river at night by the thousands like a heard of buffalo.
>>
>>. Ever see snakes in dry chaparell or desert? Or even snakes that are far away from a constant water source (of course Florida snakes and water snakes ect don't count here) but most kings and milks are nowhere near water. Most live in very arid habitat in very dry geographical locations. Where do they drink? When do they drink water? Frown the dew left on leaves in teh moring Even is dry areas in the west and midwest there is no morning dew.
>>
>> What they do is probably get a 5-6 handfull of water from rain to drink from per year. The rest of the time they are conserving water by coiling up in tight places and seeking damp tunnels ect.

Actually my mexicana rarely actually drink water. They do get some water from prey items but the rest of their hydration is absorbed humidity....
My getula do drink more but they are from flat lands and not elevations typically....I agree that they protect themselves from dehydration in the wild by covering as much as the surface area of their skin possible.

>>i just had a girl contact me a few minutes ago that i sold a florida king to. She said it is curled up in a small log in her giant 40 gallon aquarium and she can't get it out and it has not come out in 3 days. I asked her if she uses overhead light, and she does. So what the snake is doing is trying to conserve moisture by building it up in that little log by craming itself in a little ball

Conserving by not letting their skin be exposed to the dry air........yep
I don't actually know if they can build it up but they can definitely slow down the rate at which moisture is lost.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

What about overhead radiant heat panels? I am thinking about getting some for my boaphiles I'm setting up for my giant north Florida intergrades. They don't dry out the cage and cannot set fire, I think they could work well for getula. I have been using them on my arboreal stuff with a lot of success. Proproducts makes the best ones.
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Gerard

"Ten minutes to wapner..."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>What about overhead radiant heat panels? I am thinking about getting some for my boaphiles I'm setting up for my giant north Florida intergrades. They don't dry out the cage and cannot set fire, I think they could work well for getula. I have been using them on my arboreal stuff with a lot of success. Proproducts makes the best ones.
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>>Gerard
>>
>>"Ten minutes to wapner..."
>>
>>www.livebaitclip.com
>>
>>
>>GONE FISHING!!!

I've heard great things about them from a few boa guys.....and boas require high humidity......should work but may make it difficult to isolate a hot spot from the cool.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

No they are pretty easy, I use them for my emeralds and they work great at creating a perfect gradient. I already have the cages and panels I just need to find some time to set them up. I have a helix for each cage and it makes them pretty accurate.

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Gerard

"Ten minutes to wapner..."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I am currently using the "Zoomed" brand of adhesive heat pad. Someone suggested a thermostat on one heat pad to regulate all six heat pads. No offence intended, but I don't think that will work because the three heat pads I have on the bottom of the tank (same brand, same size) all put off different heat. On one there is a 20 to 30 degree heat difference. Maybe it is the brand/Quality of the heat pads. ?? not sure.

These zoomed pads give off different readings on the same pad depending on exactly where one aims the infrared gun. But none should be getting as hot as 108 to 130 or so F! I have a bunch of 4 watt and 8 watt pads all on a single thermostat, with the thermostat probe taped on to the bottom of the pad underneath the tank that is the control tank. I have thermometer probes inside the tanks exactly over the pad area. The thermostat is set at the lowest setting so it will allow power to the pads at about 77 degrees, according to the thermometers. The area around the pads is covered in deep aspen but I maintain a hollowed out area with a saucer roof over the pad, to create a warm cavity. The cavity collects heat because it is a snug little room of sorts, measuring in the mid 70's F, snakes included. Anyway, one thermostat with its probe mounted to he warmest part of the pad (generally the center of the pad) regulates all the other pads as well, and all stay in the mid to high 70's F. I use a power strip to plug in the pads and then plug the power stripe into the thermostat. I hope this makes sense. If not, I will elaborate. I keep only pyros and pituophis, which don't need very high temperatures. If I needed to I could always dial up the heat, though.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Thank for the info.

Davy these are things that have worked, didn't work and I've noticed myself while using heat pads on aquariums. I use heat tape on all the different brands of racks I have but have and still use heat pads on a couple handful of isolation tanks, and unusual style cages. I'm sure you are most likely aware of most if not all I mention here so please don't be offended but I just want to cover everything I can think of. I also know most of this has been covered already and I don't mean to say the same things others have already covered. I just want to make sure I don't leave anything out as it might relate to the next so I'm making sense.

Zoomed UTH's and T-rex heat pads have been the most dependable and durable kinds I've used. The other brands I've used that were just a little cheaper did things like you mentioned such as starting to come unstuck or coming apart after using a while. To me that just shows that they aren't as safe or dependable.

All heat pads, in my experience, will get much hotter than you need, no matter what brand. I never use heat pads without them being on a reostat or thermostat. They just get TOO hot without being turned down some in my opinion. I think turning them down some makes them safer too. I use reostats because I keep my snake rooms a constant temp so once you set the temp where you want it on the heat pads it stays the same. If your room temps change, you need them to be on a type of thermostat that keeps the heat on them constant and from getting too hot when the room is warmer.

I check the temp directly above where the heat pad is, from the inside of the tank. I know with deep bedding them temp might be much cooler on top but I make sure the temp directly above the heat pad (under the bedding) is never hotter than you would want the snake to touch. While I know some species can take it breifly I don't ever let the glass directly above the heat pad be warmer that 100 degrees. I personally don't ever let it get nearly that warm but I would make that the top temp for safty reasons. I, again personally go for the upper 80's as my warm spot for most colubrids but cooler for other species. I think for one thing, it just makes heat pads or heat tape safer as far as over heating. If you have deep bedding, the temp might not be but 80 above the bedding but the snake will burrow down where it's warmer if he wants, and they generally always do. For that reason I don't ever set the warmest temp I want them to have access too where it's above what ever bedding your are using.

I would check the temp in different areas over each heat pad. If you do have one that is much different as far as it's temps I would replace it to be safe. You should be able to plug several head pads into one multi plug safty outlet and have all them on the same thermostat or reostat.

If using a probe for temp control I still ALWAYS check it directly over the heat source with a temp gun.
As far as the question of the accuracy of your temp gun or thermometer, I do a couple things to check that. I test whatever I am using to check my temps by taking temps with it where a couple of home thermostats are or any other temp gage source to make sure they are all within a degree of each other. I check my temp gun like that every so often just to make sure it's still correct.

I agree with others in that having the heat source on the back or side of the aquarium works good as long as you have very deep bedding or something up aginst it to hold the heat in.

I have a couple general things I wanted to mention, not just to you Davy, about using aquariums that are just general thoughts as they (aquariums) are about the most common type of caging people use for herps. If you live in a central heated or cooled home, screen tops, no matter what type of bedding you use, let your cage get bone dry. Even if you use moist hides I choose to cover most of the top to limit air flow and moisture loss. Even if you have moist bedding and moist hides the air in the cage can be super dry. I leave a little area uncovered on each end of the top for air flow, the amount depending on the species and their requirements.
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Randy Whittington

Thanks for the info. Good points. especially about covering the screen and open on the ends. I have humidity problems . That sounds like it would logically work. I would have never thought of that.

One thing I have noticed is even though my heat pads are getting to hot (108-137) all of my snake are constantly laying out on the hot side, usually on top of the substrate and that is the 85-89 area.

Don't worry I don't get offended. Being offended is a choice and in this country has turned into an "excuse" for everything.

DAVY

I think I remember you saying somewhere below that your temp gun was reading those temps through the glass. I just wanted to make sure you know that if your temp gun read a temp of 137 from inside your tank that it means your snake has access to laying on a surface area of glass that is 137 degrees. I would be trying to unplug or turn that heat pad down as soon as I could reach it. If you turn the heat source down your kingsnakes can burrow down where it is warmer. Have you by any chance temp guned the surface of the aspen on the cool sides of your tanks inside. If your heat sources are that hot I'm afraid you might be suprised how warm the cooler sides are. If your screen tops have been uncovered it would be letting a lot of the heat out but it still might be warmer than you would expect. If you start covering most of the screen tops without turning down the heat source it could get way too hot in the aquariums.
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Randy Whittington