Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Lost my prize yellow male thayeri to my female vivid earth toned or retro line. These two, for the most part have been together for 3 years and only separated to feed. She was fat and sassy and nowhere near underfed. I caught this same female trying to take her mate the first year I bred her but he was a smaller animal. Not the case this time, they were both equitably sized. No reason for this to happen other than, sometimes, this is what king snakes do. At least they have bred and she is gravid so his unique genetics (at least to my collection) are not completely lost.

The upside is I have another very cool male in the wings that I would have otherwise moved out. Guess he'll be staying a little longer but this is a setback to my yellow project.

The straw yellow vivid earth tone animal will from this point on only be paird with the vivid male which is a beast
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

sorry to hear that.

daveb
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alcohol, tobacco and firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency

That sucks Tony. At least you have a backup and she got gravid first!! This will probably start the bonding argument up again!!! I know how I feel about it. Sorry for your loss bro.

Joe

Yeah, that sucks! Bonding, it isn't perfect and can result in the bad experience you and many others have had. I'm sorry it happened to you man.
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Gerard

"Ten minutes to wapner..."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Yeah, that sucks! Bonding, it isn't perfect and can result in the bad experience you and many others have had. I'm sorry it happened to you man.

A bad experirence that many other have had?????????????

I only know a handful of people that properly bond their kingsnakes. I know of no inceidents , zero, including myself, of cannibalism.

What you and others think is that throwing two snakes together during brumation is bonding.
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1) Do you beleive what you observe or observe what you beleive?

www.Bluerosy.com

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So after 3 years together they were still not Bonded?
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What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

Just saying......
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Gerard

"Ten minutes to wapner..."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

This will probably start the bonding argument up again!

Likely, I think there is something to it but its certainly not fool proof.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

"This will probably start the bonding argument up again!

Likely, I think there is something to it but its certainly not fool proof"

That's right. Virtually anything that has to do with animal behavior is not 100% foolproof at all. Just ask Timothy Treadwell.

....oops!,....um, nevermind!...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

Doug,

I have a larger collection than most. And they,, of all things ARE real snake eating kingsnakes- ie Florida kings. I also have been keeping this subspecies in large numbers for 20 years ,,maybe more..I have to count back and think cause when ya get old time flies by )hmmm, I started keeping them in '92. So some of my Florida kings are 20 years old or older.

Anyway, since I started bonding kings when they were at a young age, I never had any cannibalitic accidents. I had a king try to eat itself once. H has one eye and seems semi retared because he is always hungry but won't eat FT cause he can't seem to find them even though he has his mouth open and grabs at anything live..Finger ect. But not a FT mouse.

I had babies eat each other after their first shed. But never properly bonded florida kings. after they were large enough to eat adult mice is when you put them together. That is when the bonding process starts.

Any new introductions (and there hasn't been many),,this year i have one on breeding lone from a friend , but he bonds his kings to. So no accidents so far. I think that bonded kings tend to get along with new mates as well. Maybe it the phermones from others nearby??..i don't know for sure. I just know I throw the food in and they share and go at it and zero cannibalistic occurances. -Remember this is with a large test group and over many years!

Otherwise, I worry about and keep an eye on new adult aquistions like the rest of us. There is always that chance since these snakes are thrown into a cage with other snakes...no matter how long they have been together..they need to be bonded at a young age.

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1) Do you beleive what you observe or observe what you beleive?

www.Bluerosy.com

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I am not trying to cause a stir. just sharing my experinces with bonding. It gets repeated when i hear of "so called" bonded kings eating each other.
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1) Do you beleive what you observe or observe what you beleive?

www.Bluerosy.com

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>>I am not trying to cause a stir. just sharing my experinces with bonding. It gets repeated when i hear of "so called" bonded kings eating each other.

"So Called Bonded"? Let's say for arguements sake, that Tony didn't introduce them properly at first. After at least 2 winters together they should have been "properly" Bonded according to you.
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What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

"So Called Bonded"? Let's say for arguements sake, that Tony didn't introduce them properly at first. After at least 2 winters together they should have been "properly" Bonded according to you.

No! You need to go back and read my post again.

I have also said this in the past. oVE RAND OVER. This makes me want to repost the bonding process agaiN. I know you have read it so many times. just goes to show that some people here have their ears SHUT AND EYES CLOSED to this and don't even read. It amazes me that they are so opposed to something they don't understand and are unwilling to even read. yet be so verbal opposing.

Makes me think this forum is taken over by a bunch of zombies.

Obama chant:

YES WE CAN!
YES WE CAN!
YES WE CAN!
YES WE CAN!
YES WE CAN!
YES WE CAN!
YES WE CAN!
YES WE CAN!
YES WE CAN!

Remember that?
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1) Do you beleive what you observe or observe what you beleive?

www.Bluerosy.com

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I'll read it again. By the way, you do the same thing, lol! I have always said it can be done! I just caution people that there is always a risk. I just recently saw a feature on the reptile report that showed a Garter snake eating it's cagemate. So Yes it can be done, but Yes there is always a risk, no matter how small it is. People need to weight the possibilities and proceed with caution. Cavesa Dura!
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What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

HYPOCRITE

first you say...

Sorry to hear that Tony! Nothing else needs to be said about Bonding, huh? -----

then you say, it "can" be done. you flop like the proverbial fish.
el cavesa gordo
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

HA HA, I have been saying it can be done from the beginning! I have all my Florida Kings in pairs. My problem is saying it's fool proof. Telling people that there is nothing to worry about cause you haven't "SEEN" it in your collection is irrisponsible! Someone with only 1 or 2 piars of snakes could loose one of their breeders cause of jokers like you. If I walk into my snake room and find one snake has eaten another it's on me! I know the risks, and I choose to take them with some of my snakes, not all. Telling people it works when you follow some 12 step BONDING program is non-sense! Yet the biggest non-sense of all is feeding groups of snakes together! Anyone with even a limited amount of experience will know that is insaine! We can only take them at their words for the accounts of them sharing, which carries zero weight in my book.
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What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

It's:

La cabesa gorda......Conjugate the adjective with the noun by gender....(Jorge is not a woman but head (cabesa) is)....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>It's:
>>
>>La cabesa gorda......Conjugate the adjective with the noun by gender....(Jorge is not a woman but head (cabesa) is)....LOL
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oops what did I write? I thought I put Cabeza dura? That was actually one of my nick names growing up, but with my English speaking friends. They thought my spanish pronounced name Jorge(Hor-he), sounded like "hard heard", so the name stuck for a while anyway.
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What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

estabien, no se nada.
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

That's awesome!
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Gerard

"Ten minutes to wapner..."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

That SUCKS my friend! So very sorry to hear about this!!
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Genesis 1:1

Sorry to hear that Tony! Nothing else needs to be said about Bonding, huh? By the way are you still keeping any Baron's Racers? Any pics?
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What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

Tony, sorry to hear that. I had a female do that to one of my males. Just killed him. Didn't try to eat him. This was 5 or 6 years ago. Since them I sit there and watch them breed and then separate them again. I never leave them alone by themselves. Mike Bodner
Mike Bodner's Thayeri

>>>No reason for this to happen other than, sometimes, this is what king snakes do.

no tony there are reasons you just have to figure out what they are/were... its sad to see you say no reason other than this is what kingsnakes do. is that really all you got from this occurance? and are you really satisfied with that "reason"???

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Not to raise to the bait Tom but yes it is. Will I stop housing them together because of this? No. Will I pretend that everything a snake does in my charge is the result of my actions or inaction's as if their nature is completely a reaction to the environment I provide? No. That because that premise is asinine.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

At least a few posters here are moving closer.

A couple years back i never thought i would here wghat you said Tony.

In a few more years we will here more and more about bonding kings and feeding them together ect. One small step at a time. Dragging and kicking all the way..

Things like this take time. Irregardless of the maysayer crybabies. Things will change and then credit due is forgotten and nobody knows where the info came from to begin with or how something so true is normal.

I am sure that FR could tell us things about the snakes we keep and how we could learn going back in time. . But cause there is no more respect in society. People will not learn. Hoby stands still and will eventually be taken over by government anyways.

This hooby has the worst types of people I ever met. i know of other interest groups that share interests and you have a few crooks and a few swindlers and a couple with weird selfish motives. But nothing like this hobby. What is it about the snakes that attracts these idiots? You have the same diverse groupd in other hobbies. Just not the stive and annymosity we have here. Everyone thinks they are a know it all.
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1) Do you beleive what you observe or observe what you beleive?

www.Bluerosy.com

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Gerard

"I, rule the midnight air, the destroyer. Born, I shall soon be there, deadly mass."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

...yep, perfect illustration!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

there is no bait tony.
there is a reason she killed him. you will either find out that reason or you wont.
good luck

,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Tony,
I like your reply above.

I am a proponent of the snake "bonding" approach because I have seen its merits firsthand. However, to think every single individual snake will act exactly the same is something none of us can guarantee, even under the same conditions.

The way I did my Cal kings was to put a group in a big cage over Winter. One pair - the largest and oldest - were together, literally on top of one another, each time I checked the cage. That was the first pair I kept together. But it still doesn't mean every pair of snakes cooled together will necessarily be as amicable. Your case in point. I do think letting the snakes choose their mate may yield better results.

That is a reasonable way to explain "bonding". To say for sure what would happen with every snake is irresponsible. Can it be done? Yes. Can there be problems? Yes. I don't see what's wrong with a little caution thrown into telling someone how to do something.
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Gerard

"I, rule the midnight air, the destroyer. Born, I shall soon be there, deadly mass."

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

">>>No reason for this to happen other than, sometimes, this is what king snakes do."

One thing to remember is that dealing with captive bred umpteenth generation snakes and you might sometimes get some off the wall behaviors. Then there's also the fact that captive animals are never truly in natural environments.

I've also got little doubt that even in the wild bonded pairs can turn on each other. My guess is that it would most frequently occur when a new snake attempts to become part of the group or when one leaves the group. Any change in the composition of the group could lead to jockeying for position but there could be all sorts of triggers.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

What is interesting about this unfortunate event is that she just killed him, but did not try to eat him. I figure they kill their cage mates due to being hungry. But just plain killing him is wierd. This female had a bad record of trying to kill her first mate, though. If I should be so unfortunate as to get a natural born killer in my collection it will never be put with another snake unless I am watching. So sorry you lost your prized male.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

" What is interesting about this unfortunate event is that she just killed him, but did not try to eat him. I figure they kill their cage mates due to being hungry. But just plain killing him is wierd. "

Buddy of mine has had baby FL kings do the exact same thing as Tony's female did, only it was after they hatched in their incubator. Killed but did not eat their siblings.

Also, I know of a female Cal king breeder do the same thing, acting out as a Black Widow..ha!! Friend found the male dead later on. Poor little guy.

Just sucks in all aspects.
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Genesis 1:1