Reptile & Amphibian Forums

just looking for some info on maintenance feeding.

i inquired about a bp that i was interested in until i found out the weight. i asked if she had feeding issues and the response i got was....

"No feeding issues at all, maintenance fed. If I fed everything every 5-7 days that I planned on selling I would have nothing but adult racks."

to me, this is just being cheap

if you don't feed at least once a week, wouldn't you potentially have a stunted snake?

anyone ever raised up a snake that was severely underweight from being maintenance fed and raised to adult size? results?

imo, snakes should be fed at least once a week, not starved, and charge a few more bucks if need be. seems like if you are charging hundreds and thousands for snakes, you could at least feed them once a week!

i'm a hobbyist. i keep and raise reptiles because i enjoy it and it's a passion. it always tweaks me when i see people more concerned about making a buck than the welfare of the critters. just my 2 cents.... i only got into bp's last year. i was into pits, kings, and the old world rats. seems like a lot more people out for just the money since i dipped into the bp realm.

feedback? opinions?

jonathan

I suspect what has become "normal" feeding now days is probably feeding more than is healthy due to financial motivations. That being said I would like to feed more normal. However, not raising my own rodents and living in a location where I have to drive a lot to pick up rodents and then constrained by matching my schedule to the rodent breeders schedule and my budget to his/her prices and constraints on available rodent types and sizes I'll admit I do a sub optimal job of feeding.

By far my worst job of growing up females involves three sisters I hatched in 2004. I just got first eggs (6 each) at 8 years old from the two I raised up all their life. Their young years were the low point of mouse availability for me. At the time I could get medium rats for my older girls but mice only sparingly and then they were undersized. Just from memory I would say that at 4 years old they looked like most moderately feed 1 year olds. Eventually they got big enough to eat rats (and now I have a much better source of mice anyway). Their mother, maternal grandmother, and great grandmother where moderately sized snakes under 2,000 grams and before laying these girls where around 1,500. Their father, maternal grandfather, and great grandfather where also moderate sized ball pythons. I have two females approaching 5,000 grams so can eventually grow big ball pythons with the right genetics. But given the genetics of this particular line I would say that in spite of what most would consider extreme maintenance feeding the first 4 years of their lives I can't really say they are stunted or now that they are finally producing that they are under producing (again, for their size).

The third sister was raised by my nephew out of state and was big enough to produce in 2009. However, for some reason she has skipped the last two years so really isn't much ahead of her maintenance feed sisters (I think she will go this year and pass them up on total eggs).

So my experience so far is that they don't seem to be limited on their breeding potential by maintenance feeding, just delayed on the start. I guess to be sure ask me in 10 to 20 more years how these three sisters turned out longer term.
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Randy Remington
anyone@snakemorphs.com
www.SnakeMorphs.com
FaceBook

randy, interesting story. thanks for sharing. i know that a lot of snakes have their highest growth rate in the first year or 2. that's what makes me wonder about the stunting/long term effects. did you also raise the third sister for the first couple of years?

i went to the other extreme. in 1990 i was a teenager and i got my first boa. i started raising rats, and looking back, seriously overfed her. she looked like a stuffed sausage. lol now i try to feed all hatchlings and juvies every 5-7 days. i monitor to make sure they don't get overweight though. i have been blessed with a steady supply of feeders.

buzzardball, hmm... i don't agree with that. if someone can't afford to feed an animal, then they should get rid of it. from the prices i've seen these bp's going for, i don't think buying feeders should be an issue. if someone is charging a couple grand for a snake and can't afford to feed it every week, there are serious issues. if it is, maybe time to get a job just my 2 cents...

tosha, i agree about not overfeeding. i also like to feed properly especially when they are going through their biggest growth spurt. by the way, i did walk away i might be new to bp's but not new to reptiles i have met a handful of people that i have done business with and trust. always looking for more, but i'm cautious as well...

jonathan

No, the third female I sent off at a few months of age (and very small) and got her back as breeding size in early 2009 I think it was. I was just looking at her today and she is still a little bigger than her sisters I kept. It will be interesting if to see if she goes this year if she lays 1 or 2 more eggs or maybe the same number but just a bit bigger eggs.

It all comes down to what is the range of feeding schedules that are healthy and humane for the snakes. I personally think the range is pretty wide. In my case it was more the size of the mice but also some the frequency that slowed my girls down. Actually remembering back when they finally started growing was a brief window when I had my own ASF colony (before the wife got "wind" of them) and that got them up to size to eat medium rats.

So IF it turns out that your big breeder’s maintenance schedule isn't hurting them then it's just a personal preference/business decision. I know a moderately big breeder who in the last few years started pushing his young for sale snakes more. His thoughts are they sell better with size. But I could see the other side too. Your big breeder might have thousands of unsold animals and doubling his feeding bill might be a on the order of 10k dollars a month difference to the bottom line. For every animal he sells at a high asking price he may be sitting on many many more and of course could have lots of other overhead (building, employees, etc.). Also if we are talking about rare morphs if he can't sell the bigger ones for any more then pushing them to big size would just get his customers closer to being competition for all his effort. Just playing the devil's advocate, personally I'd love to feed more and have bigger babies both to sell and keep for breeders that much sooner when they don't sell.
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Randy Remington
anyone@snakemorphs.com
www.SnakeMorphs.com
FaceBook

Don't agree with what, economics? How far do you think $2000 will get you with 4000 animals? You guys are thinking "newbie Joe" with 6 animals in his bedroom! I'm thinking LARGE production! Baby balls are fine being fed every 7-10 days! Feeding babies on the market 2-3 times a week, is just not in the economic cards! Hell, I know breeders that sell babies before they've even fed! The buyer agreeing to this of course!

Considering the "big boys" produce THOUSANDS of babies each year, and you know what rodents cost, you do the math on feeding once, twice, three times a week! Hell, figure it for 500 babies! "Lazy" has nothing to do with it! Maintenance feeding is perfectly acceptable!

Considering the costs the "big boys" make on these snakes, there is no excuse why they should not be eating atleast once a week, if under a year old. It's inhumane to starve a young ball.

1) The "Big Boys" normally don't have cash coming out of their ears as you seem to think they do! They make a living, but I've never seen one on "Cribs"!

2) "Starving" LOL, you're comical! I suggest you read the other responses on this thread!

Well, LOL if you want, I will not starve my Lady Predator, my ball is less than a yr old and eats a small rat each week. It's just $4 bucks a week! My gosh... I am glad you don't own me..I would hate to be starving and crawling around looking at you and wondering when you would feed me. That is sad...real sad!

You just proved my original point!

your $4 is our $. 60....

but

....I used up to 1000 mice and rats a week....and I had just 200 to 500 snakes at a time...

.....(I fed well...)...

as mentioned in another post....all the gotta be fed is 10 days and just get a bigger mouse...same price....

I know people that sell mice...50 cents...pinks to large...50 cents...they say...they are all mice....same price....LOL
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........JY

Hi,

You're anthropomorphizing the issue. A ball python fed every 7-10 days is not starving, and as Jeff mentioned, most "maintenance" fed bps are likely healthier than many of the sausage-like snakes that are so common these days. Ball pythons have large fat reserves by design. They can safely handle going a year or more without food if other conditions are adequate. I have a couple that only eat a few meals a year. They are in their teens and have never bred, but they are certainly not unhealthy. They are large, lean snakes that just choose to eat infrequently.

There is nothing wrong with your feeding regime, but don't assume that it is necessarily better because you are feeding more calories per week. Young, growing balls can be fed more frequently, or given larger meals if they are allowed the broad range of temperature choices (from 70-100F) that are required to appropriately process such meals. I have raised many males to breeding size in under a year and many females to breeding size at 18 months. It can be done, but their is nothing wrong with slower growth and moderate feedings.

Many of us learned years ago that fat snakes are not healthy snakes. They suffer more health issues and frequently fail as breeders. Ball pythons are stocky snakes by design and don't need to be stuffed with food. If you do choose to feed frequently, make sure you allow the temp range that will allow those calories to be processed into lean growth for the first year or so, snakes should bulk up when they approach adulthood.

Also, the fact that you are paying $4.00 for a small rat screams of inexperience. Buy a small freezer and order feeders online, where you can find frozen sm. rats for under a $1.00. Good luck.

Will

...they do...

...they get new cages every couple years
...they get bigger buildings
...they invest in $20-40,000 gambles
...they pay all kinds of advertising ,some just annoying
...they move...let's say to Florida...and buy alot of land, new house, new buildings...etc etc etc...

alot make money....

wait...made...money...they are too big and not getting it in return....bam...market crash and economy...mouse food prices doubled....aspen and pine...doubled...gas...tripled...cages...doubled....electricity up....too many employees....

.....and the cornsnake went to $3 wholesale.....

......some make it ...some spent it.....

./////---and ...once every 10 days...just a bigger mouse...is all that's needed.....
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........JY

When I got my first snakes 30 some odd years ago - we were told they ate once a month - so we fed them once a month - they weren't starved or malnourished looking but didn't look like the fat ball pythons of today.

Times change information became more available as did domestically produced snakes that ate a hell of a lot better than the imports we were getting - snakes started getting fed more often - they got fatter but honestly no real big change in overall growth rate.

Once every couple of weeks is fine for a balls metabolism and growth. Once a week is recommended if you are looking to rapid grow or bulk up a snake for breeding. A lot depends on your goals and perceptions - snakes don't need to be kept "constantly full".

I've taken in some really poor feeders from people that couldn't get them to eat but a couple of times a year - once onto a good feeding schedule the seem to pick up their growth - and some snakes just come from small stock and no matter what schedule they are on they stay on the petite side.

Set aside preconceived notions about feeding schedules and judge the snakes health (age, size muscle tone, etc.) and if you don't feel right about it then walk away.
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Tosha

nihil facimus sed id bene facimus

But I would hazard that "maintenance-fed" baby BP's are probably healthier than their over-fed siblings and counterparts.

never did it....

I fed well....too well if they were mine and fed plenty with the ones for sale...

but...we feed a snake for a year...get it to 900 grams....male or female...any morph...and alot of times..after a year....we get the same price or less than if it would have sold right away...

always made me wonder why people would stick to a certain price and not budge at all when I had cash in hand...not always...but with most stuff...you know the price is negotiable...some people are just ...(add your word)...(examples)ie(cheap, stuckup, dumb,in it for buissnessbeyond buissness.. etc etc)LOL....

sell quick...make people happy....

aaaaand....if we raise them to 900 grams...people say..."yea, but I want a little one"...to raise on their own....((but they want it now...and babies aren't out yet))

....all ramblings.....but yes...you can get most balls up to size after being stunted...but not all....

....feed it like you mean it.....but not 2 pound rats...guess pinhead overfed is a whole other problem?
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........JY

i hear you and you have some valid points. everyone is entitled to their won opinions. i never suggested power feeding. feeding an appropriately sized feeder once a week to ones that are going to be sold i think is quite reasonable. imo

i try to, "do unto others and i would have them do unto me..."

personally, i wouldn't feel right about taking the chance on stunting the growth on a snake that i am selling to try and save a buck. i'm not talking about $20 corns. i'm talking about selling bp's that are a couple grand and less than 200g at a yr of age! that's just BS imo

someone is going to spend good money on a snake that might be permanently because someone didn't want to spend $1 a week on that snake for a meal. i have a freezer full of feeders and have a live breeder for my picky ones.

anyway, ruffled some feathers with this one. lol just my 2 cents....

jonathan

I'm on your side....

........once knew a guy who owned a pet shop....colubridae...I asked ..."whatcha feed them"...he said..."AIR"......
he wouldn't even maintain them....buy and pray they sell before they lose weight....

he sucked for that ......(gone...2 stores and bankrupt 3 times -plus...sounds familiar in snake world huh)...
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........JY