Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I obtained a pair of 2010 alterna this feb... when I bought them they seemed very small to me. I have been feeding them 3 to 4 rat pinkies every 3 to 5 days. I feel like I am pushing them a little to hard. They are growing like crazy but I don't want them to get obese. The plan is to get them to breeding size next year and be healthy of course. I guess my question is, how much is to much? I am in the same predicament with my 2010 rusty sonoran gophers as well.
Thanks in advance
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If they are growing, they can eat quite a bit. It's hard to give an amount which is too much. Alterna tend to stop eating early when the cool weather begins. So you should take advantage of the season while their eating good. Keep in mind Alterna, from my experience, and from what I have been told by other breeders, some who have bred Alterna extensively is that they are prone to egg binding if the females are small at breeding time.
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What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

There is no such thing as power feeding, unless your force feeding a snake unwilling to feed.

A snake only feeds when hungry, so its a voluntary behavior.

There is such a thing as poor temperature choices or temperature mismanagement, where the temps are not sufficent to process large amounts of food properly.

Under metabolizied reptiles store energy as fat instead of using it for growth and reproduction.

For instance, I live in the desert and we have diamondback rattlesnakes. I feed several mice when they come to a specific place to feed. Which means, they must come from somewhere else and coil in a feeding posture at this one spot.

Some feed normally every three days. And they must travel 30 to 50 meters to feed. One would feed every night once its hot out.

I did the same with coachwhips and only fed them at one spot. One female, fed 14 days in a row, 4 to 7 small mice, then laid eggs, then fed 17 days in a row(same amount) and laid another clutch.

So the term power feeding is often misused and often meaningless. Its more about management of energy, then forcing anything.

In my long experience, the best breeders I ever had were raised very very quickly. And that included lots of mexicana. Cheers

I agree they are at proper temps and are growing nicely... anyone want to chime in and state a good wieght and length for a young breeder alterna?
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Great reply Frank.....
I agree with you on all accounts in that post.....
A growing kingsnake will use their food intake to grow....
An adult kingsnake will use their food intake to sustain...
If provided the correct thermal gradient a king will never become obese....especially if cycled and bred yearly......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

" A snake only feeds when hungry, so its a voluntary behavior."

Is that behavior unique to snakes, do you think? I'm curious because dogs and cats and humans, for example, will eat until they become obese, behavior that's clearly unhealthy. I'm wondering why those animals can eat too much but snakes can't. Help me out here!

The key is to eat while you're walking your dog and/or on a treadmill....it's your choice...

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

>>" A snake only feeds when hungry, so its a voluntary behavior."
>>
>>Is that behavior unique to snakes, do you think? I'm curious because dogs and cats and humans, for example, will eat until they become obese, behavior that's clearly unhealthy. I'm wondering why those animals can eat too much but snakes can't. Help me out here!

Mammals do not metabolize with temps....Warm blooded vs. cold blooded........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Good thing I had to go to the bathroom, I had time to think. Or I would have blasted your bum for asking such a silly question.

So I will start with a question to reply to your question.

Have you ever seen an obese wild cat or obese wild dog? Or obese wild people for that matter?

OK, I will go on, How about an OBESE ant or Bee?

Come on sir, that question is about as silly as it gets.

First Reptiles are not mammals and at this time, they are not being fed processed foods. Try feeding your dogs and cats field mice(small rodents) birds and insects and see what happens. Cheers

Well, at the risk of being blasted. Aren't we talking about domesticated snakes? These snakes don't have to work very hard to find and kill prey? I have seen obese snakes, so your answer here is not very convincing. Another thing is the mice are fed processed foods which could cause them to have higher fat content than wild mice possibly? There are so many variables to this situation, that no one can give a black, and white answer. That is why observation is key.
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What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

ignorance is painful to see.
obesity in colubrids is from improper husbandry, namely poor temp. choices, and small cages.
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

FR,

I agree..they are not mammals. They are reptiles, and they are this thing, called cold-blooded.

Being cold-blooded, they do not need as much energy to survive. They regulate their temps with the surrounding temps to survive, hence, the need to not need as much food to create energy, such as a warm-blooded animal. They live, procreate, and grow well, being made to survive with less food than warm blooded animals.

Snakes are also opportunistic feeders in nature as well, FR. They are made to survive with such a feeding schedule. Basically, if you preach feeding them any given time the breeder feels like they want to feed their snakes, and then, using the thought process of, " ooooooh...they CAN eat!! "..coupled with the false sense of security known as heat tape, along with a " my way or the highway " attitude, then you are actually going against the process of opportunistic feeding to begin with, compared with nature.

Am I saying to feed them exactly like in nature? God no....but since they are restrained to a plastic box, with no exercise, and even having a heat tape or high ambient temps, it still is and will never be like nature, along with feeding them breakfast, lunch, and dinner, every single day, which if not monitored, can result in obese snakes.

Why do you feel the need to be insulting on your posts? Terry asked some good questions and had some good food for thought.
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Genesis 1:1

I have seen numerous species of wild animals that are obese....

* those that live near humans
* those that are in captivity

nuff said.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

Exactly!! I could not have said it better myself.

Thanks for being a voice among the prideful.
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Genesis 1:1

So what do you have to add to your food for thought?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Mammals?
Reptiles?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

or sick, thin and failing to thrive. The very diversity of behavior that allows populations to exploit new opportunities virtually ensures that some behaviors will be dead ends. presented with multiple opportunities people don't always make the right choice and neither do snakes.

This isn't an indictment of the choice method just realization of the fact that not everything these animals do in our charge is based on the environment we provide.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Good thoughts as well Tony!
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Genesis 1:1

>>>This isn't an indictment of the choice method just realization of the fact that not everything these animals do in our charge is based on the environment we provide.
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i STRONGLY disagree and believe EVERYTHING these animals do in our charge IS based on the environment we provide.
go ahead and indict the choice method if you think you can tony ga,head bring on the indictments maybe you can succed where others have failed maybe you and others who cannot GRASP the "choices" method can finally shine in your triumph of poor husbandry practices....like poor to no temp&humidity gradients, controlled weekly feedings, solitary confinement, etc. etc.
see choices provide a keeper insight as to what the snake wants/needs to thrive in captivity, PERIOD.
choices will show a keeper what temps&humidity levels the snakes prefer, grouping/bonding shows a keeper behavioural aspects he/she otherwise would not experience. shouldnt every keeper experience/learn as much as they can and then provide for their charges accordingly tony?
as a very dedicated ophidiaphile i want my snakes to be happy and strongly feel it is my and every keepers duty to at the very least provide as much as i/we can for them. to make their captive life as pleasant as possible.
is not keeping coldblooded animals that metabolize food and growth with temps and humidity at static temps kind of cruel? howsa bout solitary confinement?
howsa bout deciding how much food and when?
for some its an obvious control issue(i are smrt and i know whats best mentality)
for me and others its about the snakes and allowing the snakes to choose, simple.

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Davie, do you not chose who will be housed together? Do you leave food in there 24/7, giving your animals the choice to eat anytime they want? Or do you just chose when YOU want to feed them and which animals YOU want to "bond"? Now, I'm not minimizing your opinions, choices are important, you just have to be smart enough to see, you do the same thing a different way. Is it possible to talk about things here without the name calling backed only by opinions? Open your cages, if your snakes stay the rest of their life's there, without trying to leave, I will fly to Texas and say I'm sorry and that you are the master. Go ahead, let's see what choices they really want..................
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,don't copy and paste
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Gerard

"Dream the same thing every night, I see our freedom in my sight.
No locked doors, no windows barred, no things to make my brain seem scarred. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

indiviual attention to snakes, by feeding them one at a time is percieved as lazy, or unhealthy, even cruel. But keeping snakes in groups, and tossing in food so each can eat all they want is percieved to be healthy, and not cruel! What about stress, from animals competeing for food items, or spread of desease, and or parasite loads? Which is lazy? Tossing in handfulls of mice and going to the mall, or making sure each snake eats their meals, and is feeding properly.

Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a closefull eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversly affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!
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What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

You can disagree all you want but innate behavior exists.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

i dont disagree with innate behaviour tony. i disagree with your ascertion that behaviour you have witnessed is not a direct reaction to conditions you provide.

,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Then you don't understand what innate behavior is.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

oh i understand it just fine tony.
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"A snake only feeds when hungry, so it’s a voluntary behavior. "

There is an alternative view. Snakes are opportunistic feeders that will gorge when food is available. That the availability of food in captivity can be much different from what it is in the wild is clear indication that you can’t just rely on the snake’s appetite as an indicator of healthy intake. Ultimately any animal’s metabolism breaks down like this:

Caloric intake = output (growth activity reproductive effort fat storage)

If Caloric intake > growth activity reproductive effort alone then fat storage is going to increase. Its all about where those extra inputs are utilized. In some situations it is used to maximize growth and reproductive output but some snakes use it to get fat.

Ultimately, the results you get from various feeding schedules are going to vary from collection to collection, species to species and individual snake to individual snake. There is no real right or wrong way, just results that balance the needs of the animal against the expectation of the keeper.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

>>There is an alternative view. Snakes are opportunistic feeders that will gorge when food is available. That the availability of food in captivity can be much different from what it is in the wild is clear indication that you can’t just rely on the snake’s appetite as an indicator of healthy intake.

Excellent point which is along the same thoughts I had. Snakes in captivity are not the same as snakes living in the wild.
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What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

>>>>There is an alternative view. Snakes are opportunistic feeders that will gorge when food is available. That the availability of food in captivity can be much different from what it is in the wild is clear indication that you can’t just rely on the snake’s appetite as an indicator of healthy intake.
>>
>>Excellent point which is along the same thoughts I had. Snakes in captivity are not the same as snakes living in the wild.
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Yeah but with the way I feed and the way I keep my snakes I do not get obese snakes......

And who really knows what snakes do in the wild?

Also I'd like to point out that snake keepers (not breeders) will have healthy kingsnakes if they feed once a week and keep the temps a constant temp......ya know, folks like Billy and others......

IMHO, breeders should provide more......like providing thermal gradients, humidity options and feeding when the king shows it is ready for prey......
I think most have a hard time really comprehending the signs that constitute the time to feed.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I have to follow suit with Jlassiter. The way i keep my snakes they will never get fat.

My understanding from reading his posts is he gives his temperature choices, allows groups to live together and that allows they to breed whenever they are ready.

Put your snakes in a box and take away any of these choices you might get fat snakes. ...heck lets go the opposite route. Keep the snakes at a steady 76-80 during summer and force cool them in winter and house them individually...I can see why some people are afriad of fat snakes. LOL!

Also thought of one other thing that i have been doing. Since i keep some of my breeders in more than just pairs (some 3-4 in a unit) they are more active. Maybe it is the stimulation. Whatever it is, it cause them to move about more rather than live a sedentary life and not have any excercise or other stimulation.

Since i come from a fitness backround I have some facts regarding humans and dieting. In the past there where many weight loss dits that people bought into. How our body works has to be understood as well. NOW it is known you should feed your body with sevral small meals throughout the day to help burn fat.

What happens is the body has a switch (kinda like when us humans used to have famines) ..If you starve the body and then feed it. You are training teh body to store more BF. It will hold onto more bodyfat in protecting itself from the next famine/diet

...I don't know if any of this relates to snakes or not. But it is not as simple as restricting calories ..even for lone sedentary snake kept by itself with forced cooling!

"There is no real right or wrong way, just results that balance the needs of the animal against the expectation of the keeper.

So to Tony and others. While this old adage of "there is no real right or wrong way". I don't agree with that. Because there is bad, subpar, good, better, BETTER and best we know how.
It comes down to what we know and IF we know hor. There is always a better way. To improve in keeping any animal or EVEN taking care of our own bodies there is a right and wrong. The whole things boils down either being ignorant or just plain lazy.

As far as humans and their ability to learn. Heck well, back in the 60's my parents took vitamins when there weren't many people taking supplements. I took them to school and there was an uproar. The school called my parents and asked why they feel the need to give me pills when all the nutrients should be taken from the food we eat.

People live longer today. In the 70's i started working in health clubs and gyms. People walking by thought we were queer because we looked at ourselves in the mirror because at ourselves while lifting weights..They didn't understand we were looking at our form.

Point here is people take a while to come around to certain new ideas. There will be those that buck progress even though it makes sense. It will take a few years..but in herpetoculture this will change. The concepts suggested here FR, myself and others of giving choices in temps, humidity, bonded kings living in groups and breeding when they want will be pretty common knowledge and husbandry fro healthier captives..
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Observing them in a cage by themsleves with set temps and deciding when to feed is hardly natural or healthy for the snakes.

www.Bluerosy.com

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Then you agree, it is possible to over feed a snake, if it's not set up to handle that amount of food. Why couldn't that be said at the beginning? If you set them up the way you guys do, it is a lot less likely but for the average hobbyist, it's far from non existence. That's what the left was trying to say, the simple facts. This is not directed at you John, I know your animals are in tip top shape. It should be considered by people making certain comments that not everyone does it the way they do, because it's not the only way, even if it's not the best...
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Gerard

"Dream the same thing every night, I see our freedom in my sight.
No locked doors, no windows barred, no things to make my brain seem scarred. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

>>Then you agree, it is possible to over feed a snake, if it's not set up to handle that amount of food. Why couldn't that be said at the beginning? If you set them up the way you guys do, it is a lot less likely but for the average hobbyist, it's far from non existence. That's what the left was trying to say, the simple facts. This is not directed at you John, I know your animals are in tip top shape. It should be considered by people making certain comments that not everyone does it the way they do, because it's not the only way, even if it's not the best...
>>-----

I believe Rainer has stated that many times but maybe in not so many words......
It DOES have to do with set up / husbandry........definitely.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

He did, in MANY words, lol, I was just commenting on how this thread started. I fed my King cobras a corn snake every other day with no problems. They seemed to move them in less than a day and never looked stuffed once. They grew solid as a rock, not a bit of fat. My friends that fed theirs only rodents, less then I fed wild snakes, grew up with a lot more fat. They weren't hard and seemed to not want to move as much, even felt kind of limp. I have asked many other keepers who said they have seen the same thing with that species. Just something interesting this thread made me remember, they looked so much better than the rodent fed animals, weird.
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Gerard

"Dream the same thing every night, I see our freedom in my sight.
No locked doors, no windows barred, no things to make my brain seem scarred. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

They weren't hard and seemed to not want to move as much, even felt kind of limp

kingsnakes that feel limp is either from a sedentary lifestyle that comes from no stimuli (bonded groups) or it could be a genetic problem coming from a certain line.

So yes... A snake that is kept sedentary and has no choices can get that way. I would think if you locked a person in a 6x6ft room with no windows or outside contact and fed 3 squares a day the same thing can happen. Decramental conditions cause those effects. .
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Observing them in a cage by themsleves with set temps and deciding when to feed is hardly natural or healthy for the snakes.

www.Bluerosy.com

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They were in the same conditions, only the food item was different.
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Gerard

"Dream the same thing every night, I see our freedom in my sight.
No locked doors, no windows barred, no things to make my brain seem scarred. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

WERE THE TWO SNAKES SIBLINGS?

or are they from different lines?

You can see where I am going with this.
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Observing them in a cage by themsleves with set temps and deciding when to feed is hardly natural or healthy for the snakes.

www.Bluerosy.com

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It was many different WC snakes, some from the same areas and some from different countries. The ones fed snakes never got fat and soft, the ones on rodents did. I'm not saying I know why, just a observation by me and many keepers. I thought it was interesting, people I hadn't talked to before about them have brought it up as well.
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Gerard

"Dream the same thing every night, I see our freedom in my sight.
No locked doors, no windows barred, no things to make my brain seem scarred. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Without a fecal smear to determine what types of parasites they have there is no conclusion you can come to.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BQvXeFZE54

yil.jp/iguana/parasite/parasite/fecal_check_marie-e.htm
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Observing them in a cage by themsleves with set temps and deciding when to feed is hardly natural or healthy for the snakes.

www.Bluerosy.com

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They were all treated for parasites, no fecals were done so it is a consideration I thought of. It just seems weird and snakes are there main diet in the wild. Once my kids grow up a lot more, I will get some more and try it again. This time I will get full labs done and try it both ways. Sounds like a good excuse to get some more, huh?
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Gerard

"Dream the same thing every night, I see our freedom in my sight.
No locked doors, no windows barred, no things to make my brain seem scarred. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

" Also I'd like to point out that snake keepers (not breeders) will have healthy kingsnakes if they feed once a week and keep the temps a constant temp......ya know, folks like Billy and others...... "

No, you have always recently stated, that kingsnakes do not thrive with once a week feedings. Now you are changing your tune. Why is that John?????

Back when I did breed, I, of course fed my females more than once a week during breeding season. It wasn't that every snake got fed once a week no matter what, all the time, all year.

You are now changing your tune John. You recently stated that kingsnakes do not thrive with once a week feedings. That is what I do not agree with, alongside with the plethora of breeders who were breeding before you and others from this forum were, who have raised snakes to become breeders on once a week feedings.

Take care!
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Genesis 1:1

discern wrote >>> Back when I did breed, I, of course fed my females more than once a week during breeding season. It wasn't that every snake got fed once a week no matter what, all the time, all year. >>>

see i believe the problem with the "weekly feeders" camp verse the "feed them when they are hungry provide choices" camp is that neither way is the same all the time all year. DUH you have to use judgement on what you SEE and the problem i have with camp 1 is its limiting, confineing, controlling, kinda robot like no need to see anything.
where as camp 2 promotes OBSERVATION and feeds accordingly and does not fear obesity in growing baby kings, provides choices watches, learns, and listens. also camp 2 has seen firsthand the detrimental effects of poor husbandry IE no choices and weekly feedings, camp 1 thinks its the snakes fault.

sad

,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"Powerfeeding" is a misnomer. There is no such thing.

The more and more ofetn you feed your captive the healthier and longer it will live. Starved snakes fed 1x per week grow up to be finicky captives and unhealthy specimens.
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www.Bluerosy.com

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Alterna are very different in terms of their biological makeup, then getula. They are primarily lizard eaters in the wild, thus the predicament of how picky the babies can be to want to eat pinky mice right from the get-go.

One thing also about alterna is that not all alterna grow to some average size. Various areas of alterna have specimens only reach lengths such as appr. 28 - 30 inches. Other areas can throw off specimens that are 3 feet on up.

If your alterna seemed small, they actually may be genetically not going to get as big as other alterna. Do you know long big/long, the parents are? Be sure to ask the breeder, if you have not already. That may be a good way to guage the size. And..maybe the breeder didn't feed them enough as well. That is always a possibility.

Obesity for alterna, a lot of the times, appears as fat deposits near their tail. Then, like other fat kings you see, can appear as folds in their skin when they are curled up.

If they seem fine now with doing it the way you have been doing, I would just keep doing that, and keep a good eye out. To say that powerfeeding doesn't exist, which the action itself, is just selfish, is just straight up denial on the way animals respond to conditions, food intake, and caloric burning, with what the keeper has been offering. Ask anyone with knowledge of the subject of reptile health, even those with degrees, and like I have experienced numerous times, they laugh at comments you may find on this forum. Those who say that powerfeeding does not exist are usually guilty of such a thing. Read about reptile health, obesity, and talk with qualified reptile vets or the like, who know really well the subject of obesity in reptiles.

Knowledge over selfishness.

Here is a grayband I own, speaking of, with the " vewy scewy " feeding regimen of once a week.

Snakes do great with once a week feedings on properly sized food items, and I know reptile breeders who have hatched out more snakes that anyone on this forum, that have had great success with such a feeding. I personally do every 5 days with my babies to yearlings, and have also had great success raising snakes to adult size with once a week feedings in 2 years, with some, sometimes 3 with others. The key is balance.

Just my opinion.
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Genesis 1:1

Great opinions......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Thank you John!!
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Genesis 1:1

roflmfao
folks with actual REAL EXPERIENCE have much differant "opinions" than billyboy.
ignorance is such a sad pathetic thing to see, poor billyboy.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas,

Your insecurity fuels again, your name calling. Since it seems like you can not go without name calling to those whom you disagree with, then seriously think about your position in the hobby.

Take care!
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Genesis 1:1

billyboy is name calling huh???
how WEAK.
what a joke
how PATHETIC
you really need some sensetive pants junior
besides, i was responding to lassiters post.

,,,,,,,,,,

,,,,,,,,,,,
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

The snakes come from a very well known breeder and the father is a w/c. I won't get into the my snake comes from that guy conversation... I purchased them second hand from the breeder but I have pictures and names that lead me to believe that the genetics couldn't be better. As far as the feeding goes. I respect all different opinions here, I always have. I do not repcect however the once a week feeding regimen. My personal observations tell me that my kings and milks need to eat more than that... especially the ones who bouce around there cages all day...
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Check out my collection on Facebook...
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Houston-Herpholics/185272254884373

>>The snakes come from a very well known breeder and the father is a w/c. I won't get into the my snake comes from that guy conversation... I purchased them second hand from the breeder but I have pictures and names that lead me to believe that the genetics couldn't be better. As far as the feeding goes. I respect all different opinions here, I always have. I do not repcect however the once a week feeding regimen. My personal observations tell me that my kings and milks need to eat more than that... especially the ones who bouce around there cages all day...

Great observation.....
It is best to observe and react than to force a captive to one temp and once a week feeding for their life time.....

Both ways do seem to work but my opinion is that one way works better for me and my snakes......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Well in nature Alterna probably do eat very often, but they eat lizards. So take that into consideration. Also most snakes in eclosed quarters tend to become lethargic after a while. Just keep a close eye on them, and adjust accordingly. Like I said before they will probably shut down early in the fall, or at least slow down on their feeding habbits.
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What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

>>Well in nature Alterna probably do eat very often, but they eat lizards. So take that into consideration. Also most snakes in eclosed quarters tend to become lethargic after a while. Just keep a close eye on them, and adjust accordingly. Like I said before they will probably shut down early in the fall, or at least slow down on their feeding habbits.
>>-----

My males only shut down during breeding season.
My sub adults never shut down....
And I have to force my adults to.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Tell them howe roll in texas john... fall is not cool by any means. 90s last year. I had a mex mex clutch hatch in october last year.
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Check out my collection on Facebook...
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Houston-Herpholics/185272254884373

No worries, and we can agree to disagree.

Post pics of your graybands when you can!!
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Genesis 1:1

Ill work on it... there some on facebook but they r not very good pics
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Check out my collection on Facebook...
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Houston-Herpholics/185272254884373