Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So far this year. 2 clutches GONE.

With a lot of snakes i see a lot of stuff. But this is really disheartening. To work all year feeeding and cleaning to have them eat their eggs as they are laying.

One was a week ago and she ate all her eggs except for 2 slugs and she left me with one good one.

Today a giant female who has been consistenly eating her eggs every season now for the last 6 seasons. She ate all of hers hers leaving me with two good eggs and one bad slug.

Both these females are very well fed about 10 years old. They both have a history of this in past seasons. They just seem to have an afinity for their own eggs..(?)crazy!
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Observing them in a cage by themsleves with set temps and deciding when to feed is hardly natural or healthy for the snakes.

Bluerosy

You are doing what suits you. which is fine, but its not about the animal, its about you. Your requirements.

Frank Retes

www.Bluerosy.com

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That is weird. I suppose the appetite suppression that they have during the gravid period, especially strong after the pre-lay shed, clicks off too soon.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

sorry to hear that.

certainly makes for a good discussion as to when bonding and recognition start amongst groups and individuals. a lot of biologists don't consider the "egg" a step in the life cycle, but i did/do. it'd be interesting to see what is going on on those nests.

what are their nests like? are the egg eater nests the same as the non egg eaters? have you ever tried something different with the egg eaters to encourage a different behavior?

i hope these weren't big projects and i hope the rest of your season goes better.

daveb
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alcohol, tobacco and firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency

>>Both these females are very well fed about 10 years old. They both have a history of this in past seasons. They just seem to have an afinity for their own eggs..(?)crazy!

I had that happen a time or two out of hundreds of clutches, so I know how frustrating that can be. I guess one lesson to take away is NOT to blame the keeper: some snakes just have their idiosyncrasies. That's not to say that we, the keepers, shouldn't try to find workarounds to a snake's unique behavior, and I imagine you have: Over the years with these "repeat offenders" have you tried different types of lay boxes? I'm guessing yes, and that the answer then is that some individual animals simply differ from the norm, despite some efforts to suggest it's always our faults. Some snakes can cohabit, in other cases one will eat the other. Two pups from the same litter can be raised in the same household, in the same way, and one might always run away when the door's left open, and the other might always be found resting on the sofa. It's just individual differences, same as we find in humans.

But damn, it's frustrating, isn't it!

BTW people talk about females sometimes reabsorbing eggs. I think sometimes they do--the ovum swell but fail to continue to full development. They gradually get smaller, the snake "shrinks" and we wonder what the heck's going on. But I think sometimes what's attributed to reabsorption is a case in which a female eats her eggs as she lays them. That would result in the same phenomenon we attribute to reabsorption: the female's "obviously gravid" one day, and the next she's still swollen (we might not notice the swelling's more mid-body, where a meal of freshly eaten eggs would come to rest, than in the posterior half of the snake, where the eggs were) But she never proceeds to deposit eggs and gradually slims down as the eggs digest. If we haven't observed her eating the eggs, it can be easy to come to the logical but wrong conclusion.

BTW people talk about females sometimes reabsorbing eggs. I think sometimes they do--the ovum swell but fail to continue to full development. They gradually get smaller, the snake "shrinks" and we wonder what the heck's going on. But I think sometimes what's attributed to reabsorption is a case in which a female eats her eggs as she lays them. That would result in the same phenomenon we attribute to reabsorption: the female's "obviously gravid" one day, and the next she's still swollen (we might not notice the swelling's more mid-body, where a meal of freshly eaten eggs would come to rest, than in the posterior half of the snake, where the eggs were) But she never proceeds to deposit eggs and gradually slims down as the eggs digest. If we haven't observed her eating the eggs, it can be easy to come to the logical but wrong conclusion.
NOW I am going to worry about my big pyro who bred last year but never produced any eggs! I thought she either never took as her mate was not fertile enough even though he sired a great clutch with her sister, or that she had simply reabsorbed the eggs. But she never acted "nesty", either or stopped eating like they do when gravid, so maybe my initial assumptions were correct. She is gravid for sure this year and has had her pre-lay shed, so I am going to be watching extra close to see what happens over the next few days. This year she is very nesty and not interested in eating. Am expecting her to lay very soon. Feel like expectant father pacing hospital hall! LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Yes they are repeat offenders. I have had numerous females lay and never do this. So I guess once they ate their own eggs it started a addiction or something like that.

Only thing I can do is remove the eggs as they are laying. A practice I did in years opast because of this very occurance. But this year I stopped and forgot all about it. None of my other females have done this.
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Observing them in a cage by themsleves with set temps and deciding when to feed is hardly natural or healthy for the snakes.

Bluerosy

You are doing what suits you. which is fine, but its not about the animal, its about you. Your requirements.

Frank Retes

www.Bluerosy.com

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While I'm sure this can occur, I am sure re-absorption happens quite frequently too. I had a Giant Madagascan Hog nosed snake that would re-absorb every year. The eggs were very noticeable, and then started gradually getting softer and diminishing until they were no longer detectable. But it happened over a couple weeks. I'm pretty sure if she ate them they would be gone in a few days.
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Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

Terry I've wondered and put a lot of thought over time to the possibility of eggs being reabsorbed. It's just my thoughts but I think unfertilized ovum can get much larger than might be expected. I've noticed some species I breed can produce a rather large unfertilized ovum.

When I hear reabsorbed eggs being talked about I take it to be meant by others as eggs that have produced shells, fertile or not. Again just my thoughts but I'm inclined to think it's just ovum and not developing eggs that have formed shells that recede and think any eggs that have formed a shell, fertile or not are passed and not reabsorbed.

Thoughts anyone?
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Randy Whittington

That's an interesting thought. I don't know if what mine had, was with or without shells, but that is a good possiblity!
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Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

>>When I hear reabsorbed eggs being talked about I take it to be meant by others as eggs that have produced shells, fertile or not. Again just my thoughts but I'm inclined to think it's just ovum and not developing eggs that have formed shells that recede and think any eggs that have formed a shell, fertile or not are passed and not reabsorbed.

Maybe that's the distinction, Randy: once eggs are truly formed their disappearance would be accounted for by the females' eating them; at earlier, ovum, state, the "disappearance" would be due to resorption or shrinkage of those ova.

Does anyone know precisely when before deposition eggs are shelled in snakes? Birds' biology is very similar to snakes' in many ways and if I'm not mistaken eggs are shelled in birds perhaps as late as the night before they are laid. (birds don't lay their eggs all at once in a clutch of course but one a day in the case of small birds, like finches, for example, and every other day for larger birds like grass parakeets. So if I'm not mistaken each day or every two days, one more egg would be being shelled prior to being laid.

This is why I never feed slugs to females. I figure it only conditions them to this sort of behavior.
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www.brooksi.com

Are you letting these lay in a communal situation or are gravid females removed to isolated nests?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

The females are removed when they lay from the group. I do that will all my gravid females. I set them up in a container with orchid moss and tile. As soon as they lay I feed them and back into the group they go.
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Observing them in a cage by themsleves with set temps and deciding when to feed is hardly natural or healthy for the snakes.

Bluerosy

You are doing what suits you. which is fine, but its not about the animal, its about you. Your requirements.

Frank Retes

www.Bluerosy.com

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You see, if you gave them proper choices, you wouldn't have this problem. You need to leave a pile of fresh food in their cage all the time, 24/7.
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

actually no. That is not the problem at all. Cause these individual snakes have a certain afinity for eggs. I have left mice in the cage while they were laying and they ignore and eat the eggs. Mmmmm! Eggs...they seem to love them like cats like catnip.

Unless you are just playing word games. I feed them well as much as they want (and you should see how well fed they are)right up to when it comes to lay time.

I make sure they have a large water bowl (never had them lay in a water bowl ecept one time in my life after throusands of clucthes. I provide a fairly usuable nesting site and i pay extra special attention to feeding as sometimes, usually within a week after laying, they breed. So that means they are very well fed. How else can you get 3 clutches per year?
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Observing them in a cage by themsleves with set temps and deciding when to feed is hardly natural or healthy for the snakes.

Bluerosy

You are doing what suits you. which is fine, but its not about the animal, its about you. Your requirements.

Frank Retes

www.Bluerosy.com

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Then you should have a pile of fresh quail eggs for her all the time. It doesn't matter how many eggs you get, if you let her eat them. It's all about choice, read your quotes.
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

*chuckle*
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alcohol, tobacco and firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency

You can't just get over the fact i have been feeding my snakes in BONDED groups FOR YEARS and not had any instance of cannibalsm.

But thanks for your input of insinuations!

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Observing them in a cage by themsleves with set temps and deciding when to feed is hardly natural or healthy for the snakes.

Bluerosy

You are doing what suits you. which is fine, but its not about the animal, its about you. Your requirements.

Frank Retes

www.Bluerosy.com

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I was just messing with you, suave niño. I never said anything about bondage, breath.........breath...........it's ok, I promise.
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

are these females chick eaters by chance? quite possibly day old chicks smell a lotta bit like freshly laid eggs...maybe these two just can't tell the difference in a dark quiet nest site.

if so maybe get them off the chick diet and onto straight rodents, especially in the spring and near laying time.

i don't know how important these females are to your breeding program but another alternative might be to loan them out to another breeder (lol) or sell as pets.

daveb
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alcohol, tobacco and firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency

Dave,
This is not a inherent problem in my colony. You have to remember I have had thousands of Floridas lay and never do this. This is out of a large collection and so far only two have done it this year.

I feed all my snakes chicks. Smaller kings ones get the heads of chicks with occasional hairless mice thrown into their diet. But most if not all eat chicks.
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Observing them in a cage by themsleves with set temps and deciding when to feed is hardly natural or healthy for the snakes.

Bluerosy

You are doing what suits you. which is fine, but its not about the animal, its about you. Your requirements.

Frank Retes

www.Bluerosy.com

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OK
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alcohol, tobacco and firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency

Why do you think they're eating them? Certainly it can't be natural from a species suvival standpoint for females to eat their own eggs. The eggs of another of their own kind possibly but certainly not their own eggs. So I'd have to say either there's something wrong with their set up or it's simply a case of when in captivity there is no natural selection so some odd negative traits are bound to pop up.

Unless these females carry some desirable color or pattern trait that is not represented in any other animals in your collection I'd say this is pretty much a self correcting problem. One certainly wouldn't want to selectively breed for females that eat their own eggs.
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