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I was hoping that some of the breeders of Brooks Kings could post pictures of the various morphs, in particular the Jelly morph. I am considering getting some of these cool critters in the future.
One of the problems I am having is with the anerythristic morph. I'm not sure how there can be an anerythristic morph in an animal that doesn't possess red color (the exception being young animals). Any thoughts?
Anery is just a term used to describe a recessive trait. In brooks kings there is the anery and axanthic. The axanthics are more bluish and get lighter. Anerys are dark and muddied and have yellow showing. Whereas the axanthics do not.
Normally anery is decribing a mostly red snake and a axanthic decribes a mostly yellow snake. But you also have to think that some brooksi (Florida kings)babies have a lot of red. Then that turn to orange and then yellow as adults. So when does red turn to orange and orange turn to yellow? And oes this make it a anery turing into an axanthic. NO! The terms ar ebets sued to describe different recessive traits for us hobbiest to tell them apart.
That being said, the different groups of snakes such as corns, Ball pythons, rosy boas, Calif kingsnakes all do not follow the proper terms. They are all different within each group as people named the recssive traits. Which makes thing even more confusing.
You can check my link www.bluerosy.com for hundreds of pics of Florida king (brooksi) morphs.
Here is a pic of a axanthic and anery:
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Observing them in a cage by themsleves with set temps and deciding when to feed is hardly natural or healthy for the snakes.
Bluerosy
You are doing what suits you. which is fine, but its not about the animal, its about you. Your requirements.
Frank Retes
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That was actually a great, politically correct answer there Rainer.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
That was actually a great, politically correct answer there Rainer.....
Thanks, but I don't think I have ever changed my views. Anery and axanthic are and can be used interchangably. Just assigning them (names) to certain morphs makes it easier for hobbiests to tell them apart.
I think I threw this question out a few weeks ago and nobody had an answer....
What do you think of my take on if you breed an axanthic to a all red RED snake. Do you think that the phenotype should make that an anery? Or should the trait remain a axanthic?
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Observing them in a cage by themsleves with set temps and deciding when to feed is hardly natural or healthy for the snakes.
Bluerosy
You are doing what suits you. which is fine, but its not about the animal, its about you. Your requirements.
Frank Retes
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wouldn't an all red snake be considered erythristic, not ANerythristic? The prefix, A (or AN in this case) is for the absence of aid color...
Right?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!
>>wouldn't an all red snake be considered erythristic, not ANerythristic? The prefix, A (or AN in this case) is for the absence of aid color...
>>Right?
>>:Mark
>>-----
>>Surrender Dorothy!
>>
>>crimsonking.piczo.com/
Hypererythristic.....exaggerated red......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
he did not say exagerrated red...he said ALL red..either way it's not ANerythristic..
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!
>>he did not say exagerrated red...he said ALL red..either way it's not ANerythristic..
>>:Mark
>>-----
>>Surrender Dorothy!
>>
>>crimsonking.piczo.com/
True.....just like the way we use melanistic instead of hypermelanistic in thayeri....
But we use hypermelanistic in californiae not melanistic.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
I totally agree Mark. An ALL red snake is considered to be erythristic, just like an ALL black snake is generally considered to be melanistic, even though it certainly IS extremely htpermelanistic. The term hypermelanistic, hyperxanthic and hypererythristic are usually terms reserved for animals with an over-abundance, or exaggerated amount of those pigments, but not so much as to make them solid colored.....just an exaggerated amount of those pigments from the norm.
~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing" 
serpentinespecialties.webs.com
"some are just born to troll and roll"
..saw your article in REPTILES....
Nice!
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!
>>..saw your article in REPTILES....
>>Nice!
>>:Mark
>>-----
>>Surrender Dorothy!
>>
>>crimsonking.piczo.com/
What did you think?
I tried to cover multiple techniques while expressing my preferred methods.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
I think he meant your delivery, it was very nice and to the point. To your question, has anyone tried that before? I don't mean the anery and axanthic brooksi, they are the same, I know. Has anyone tried "crossing" a axanthic animal to one with red? I mean, if you breed a axanthic brooksi to sinaloan milk(Satan forbid), would it take away the red bands? You say it is the same but has it ever been done?
WC dade county male
Wait that's not how it really looks...
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Gerard
"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "
>>I think he meant your delivery, it was very nice and to the point. To your question, has anyone tried that before? I don't mean the anery and axanthic brooksi, they are the same, I know. Has anyone tried "crossing" a axanthic animal to one with red? I mean, if you breed a axanthic brooksi to sinaloan milk(Satan forbid), would it take away the red bands? You say it is the same but has it ever been done?
>>
Great minds think alike.....I just mentioned the same thing prior to reading this.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
"the anery and axanthic brooksi, they are the same, I know"
The anery and axanthic traits in brooks are incompatiple. They are two different recessive traits.
As far as breeding an axanthic to a tricolor. Yes it has been hybrized many times. And if you bred an anery brooksi to a tricolor it would have a completly different look...more yellow and browns showing through than an axanthic tricolor hybrid.
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Observing them in a cage by themsleves with set temps and deciding when to feed is hardly natural or healthy for the snakes.
Bluerosy
You are doing what suits you. which is fine, but its not about the animal, its about you. Your requirements.
Frank Retes
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So, are the two not interchangeable? You didn't answer the question about the hybrid experiment, would the axanthic from the brooksi affect the red from the sinaloan? If it was the same, there should be no red or yellow, how could that be? Do you have pics of the animals you were just talking about?
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Gerard
"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "
The "terms" can be used interchangable. And anery could be called and axanthic and vis versa. The type (anery or axanthic) was originally described as from a mostly red or mostly yellow phenotype.
The two traits in the Floridana are not compatiple and look different.
would the axanthic from the brooksi affect the red from the sinaloan?
I am not sure what you mean here? Do you mean would the axanthic from the florida effect the color of the red on the sinaloan?
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Observing them in a cage by themsleves with set temps and deciding when to feed is hardly natural or healthy for the snakes.
Bluerosy
You are doing what suits you. which is fine, but its not about the animal, its about you. Your requirements.
Frank Retes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, damn iPad! Would the affect of the axanthic trait effect the red of the sinaloan?
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Gerard
"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "
Yeah, anerythrism and axanthism are the exact same thing Gerard. That's why you don't see ANY yellow pigment on this anerythristic (no red) cornsnake.....oh!...WAIT!!..
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
serpentinespecialties.webs.com
"some are just born to troll and roll"
Just pretend like you don't see that yellow, Doug.
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what yellow???...
~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
serpentinespecialties.webs.com
"some are just born to troll and roll"
I think that is the point...What we SEE....To label something as ANery or HYPER- is just a label here in the hobby mostly. To understand what is really there (vs. what we see) you would need to undertsand just how the pigments are there in the cells...in layers of "color" that we may or may not see....
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!
That's very true Mark, and the different pigment cell layering, it's densities and exactly how it is oriented has a huge role in how the human eye perceives color. Also the role of reflection and refraction from iridophores that polarize light have a huge effect on what we see regarding certain colors.
Since the root word "xanthos" is a Greek word meaning "yellow", and xanthophores are also responsible for producing red pigment as well as yellow (known as pteridines), then a Florida king that doesn't display EITHER red or yellow (or obviously any shade combination of orange) would be considered axanthic, not anerythristic since it pertains to BOTH red and yellow pigmentation. Anerythrism is a term that is specifically reserved for pertaining to red pigmentation known as "erythrin".
The two terms can really only be accurately used interchangeably on types of snakes that would NORMALLY always display both yellow and red, and varying combinations of these two colors (i.e. different shades of orange) due to the fact that truly axanthic specimens display neither color at all in floridana and many other types of snakes in the hobby. Without yellow, red cannot display orange, and vise-versa. This is because xanthophores are responsible for producing both red AND yellow pigmentation, but when the coloration in the snake is predominantly red, the pigment cells within the xanthophore layer are then typically referred to as "erythrophores" which are pigment cells pertaining specifically to red pigment (erythrin). One of the big problems is with distiguishing this with certain normal floridana, some lines and locales of the common getula complex can typically have only beige and brown/black,yellow and brown/black, or very often have both yellow, red and orange, brown/black to their normal color schemes.. The strong red coloration typically changes into a lighter orange and then much more yellow as many gradually mature, which can be very confusing too. And of course some can also retain slight peachy/orange colored remnants here and there in their color scheme too.
Now I, and many other folks have had Florida kings hatch out of the very same clutch from two normal non-morph parents with ONLY very light yellow and dark brown, and only red and brown, and yellow, red, orange and brown. The ones that had only light yellow but no red or orange were definitely NOT anerythristic, they simply didn't happen to have red or orange to their NORMAL color scheme like the others in the same clutch did, but are nonetheless very typical and normal.
Chromatophores (pigment cells) occur in three discrete layers. The top layer is generally made of xanthophores bearing yellow pigments; the middle layer includes iridophores; and the bottom layer has melanophores with black or brown melanin. In the typical green frog, light penetrates to the iridophores, which act like tiny mirrors to reflect and scatter mostly blue light back into the xanthopores above them. The xanthopores contain yellow pigments, and act as yellow filters so the light escaping to the skin surface appears green to our eyes. If a frog lacks the yellow xanthophores, blue light scatters back and the frog appears bright blue. Iridophores do not synthesize pigments, but reflect and refract color. They contain platelets that produce a scattering effect. The real advantage to these stacks of pigment cells lies in their potential to create color changes. The animal can darken its color by moving the melanin pigment. By manipulating the three types of cells, a wide range of colors can be produced, usually extending from bright green to shades of brown and grey. Generally xanthophores contain pteridines (synthesized) and are yellow, but they can produce red pigments. Sometimes the top layer may contain erythrophores as well as xanthophores. Erythrophores contain carotenoids (absorbed through diet) which produce intermediate colors like orange, reddish-orange, and yellowish-orange. The distinction is not always made, as sometimes pteridine and carotenoids are found in the same cell.
There is quite alot that will always be very confusing, and plenty of stuff regarding pigment cells that the typical hobbyists will simply never understand at all, but anerythrism is not the same thing as axanthism. The two terms can only be used interchangeably in certain circumstances with certain types of snakes that would in fact normally display BOTH red AND yellow pigments (which does include many normal floridana, but certainly not all, just as in the above example I have given). Problem being is that it is not always possible to know which individuals would display which colors and which ones wouldn't normally display either of these two colors, or both....that is really the entire confusion with the Florida kings, they are extremely variable from individual to individual, and bloodline to bloodline.
Just this one simple link alone will give some readers here a much better understanding of pigment cells, what they do, and how they can interact with one another to display completely different outward looks. I have also read most of Bechtel's work on genetics and pigment cell workings of Leopard geckos which is virtually identical to snake genetics. Same basic genetic pigment cell principles, just a different reptile. This is an extremely interesting read and is easy to understand for the average hobbyist too.
Most of this is stuff is something that most typical snake hobbyists would never bother to look into at for themselves whatsoever, but I am glad that I have reasearched into this a good bit over the years. Very advanced stuff on these topics can really make your head spin, but alot of the basics when put in easier to understand terms is very helpful info to know and understand.
http://www.webexhibits.org/causesofcolor/7I.html
also Bechtel's tyrosinaise/melanin genetics in Leopard Geckos:
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~gambl007/publications/Gamble_etal_2006_Tyrosinase.pdf
cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
serpentinespecialties.webs.com
"some are just born to troll and roll"
That was informative and very well written for dummies like me to understand, Doug. You've done your homework on this subject.
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I'm glad that you found that stuff useful and interesting, Ross. I knew you would too. The first link at the bottom is REALLY helpful with explaining a lot of this in a very easy-to-understand approach as you mentioned.
I have a much better understanding of why my very green floridana looks so much greener than others do because of wanting to find these things out for myself too. I understood a few years ago that Iguanas are not "green" either, and there are no actual pigment cells that produce the color green. It's all about the reflected wave lengths of light reflecting back through the xanthophore layer from the crystalline-structured iridophore platelets that make your eyes perceive the color green.
It's very interesting stuff that many will never know without doing some reading on the subject...
It goes way beyond what some idiot decides to put on a deli cup label because that is what he/she thinks it resembles, or what they were told it was by someone else that has only bred one or two snakes in their long herpetocultural career..LOL!
~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
serpentinespecialties.webs.com
"some are just born to troll and roll"
Yeah, when I get back I will get to those links. I'm sure there's some interesting stuff there.
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...and who was robin??? Or was it the Hardy Boys???
Doug,
your intelligence level is obviously way beyond us"idiots" who have only managed to fumble around and luck out on a clutch or two! Jeepers,I was lost after the second sentence,you know that I don't know that you know what you are talking about!!!
Since you are the most posted on kingsnake and a "freakin" genius to boot I think its time that Jeff created the "DMong" forum!!!!!!! Just think-a forum dedicated to YOU!!! I know it's a little overwhelming at first but,I know you will get used to it my friend! You will have ALL day to monitor your own forum and share all the knowledge you have accumulated thru your long years of herpecultural experience.
I,for one would love to see ALL your numerous posts consolidated to one forum!
Very cool my friend that you have attained a kind of snake "nirvana"and you can look down upon us who are not enlightened and offer a tidbit of hope.
Rodney,....I see that you can definitely take smart comments and sarcasm to a whole different level.
I'm far from being a genius, I'm just not nearly as freakin DUMB as some people is all............
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
serpentinespecialties.webs.com
"some are just born to troll and roll"
THATS FUNNY! we all are SOOOO not worthy
ahahahahaaaaaAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAAAHAHAAAA
,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
You SUCK! Hhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...................
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,shave it!
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Gerard
"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "
oh BOY doug needs me help! I ARE GERARDS... I HELP DOUG...
you are PATHETIC gerards, geez man have no dignity whatsoever? the way you run around sucking on dougs... toes.
do you realize how you look to anyone reading?
ahahaaaahaaahahahahahhhaaaAHAHAHAAAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAAAA
,,,,,,
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
my website www.barmollysplace.com
"do you realize how you look to anyone reading?"
HAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!!!!!
Obviously this is something that you never consider when you type out your trolling posts............
Ya know,......you really should think about opening up your own "trolling school" Davis. At least you would be looked up to there as the ALL-TIME most experienced TROLL that ever lurked the forums.......
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
serpentinespecialties.webs.com
"some are just born to troll and roll"
I always thought you were just acting on here, you know, just messing around. Now I see it's no act, your really this stupid. Funny, I feel really bad now, like I have been kicking a puppy or something small and fluffy. Oh god, like your beard, I'm a real a-hole. I'm sorry little guy, I understand now, you were just born this way and its not your fault.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you suck!
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Gerard
"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "
That's a good example, very different, non interchangeable conditions.
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Gerard
"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "
I know you didn't change your views on the subject....
I just liked the way you answered the question from a new guy that has been covered a thousand tines....
If there is such a thing as an anery getula then we need someone to cross them with a lampro that really has red then backbreed the babies to see if they produce truly anery offspring.....
I have a hard time accepting a lot of the floridana called hypomelanistic too.....
I think the bluish ones and the white ones are bit axanthic.....most just use the term anery for the white ones.....
Splendida have bit bluish and white ones and they are all axanthic.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
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