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I wanted to start a thread to talk about the differences between Hypos & Toffeebellies. I own a hypo, but have never seen a TB in person. In pictures they look very similar to me. I've been talking to a couple of gentlemen already, but will let them chime in if they see fit. Anyone else care to share their opinions?

I wanted to start a thread to talk about the differences between Hypos & Toffeebellies.

For starters, I would like to clarify something. While "Hypos" have been called hypo for many years, this is actually a complete misuse of the term. There is nothing Hypomelanistic about "Hypos" at all! If anything, they are a different form of Amelanism as are "Albinos" and Pink Pastels. Even using the term Albino is incorrect, but that's another topic for another time. Bottom line is, I like to call them Evan's Amels.

Having clarified this, we had an indepth discussion about this several years ago: Link

I own a hypo, but have never seen a TB in person. In pictures they look very similar to me.

I am in the same boat, I have many Evan's Amels and seen several differing variations of their coloration, a few of which look like Toffees but obviously are not based on their genetics. Having said that, I know of one individual who has bred Evan's Amels to Toffees and produced all normal double het animals. This proves that the Evan's Amel and Toffee genes are not compatible regardless of similarities in coloration.

And of course there is the so-called Paradoxing which, in my opinion, is another currently misused marketing buzzword. A paradoxical animal is one that has some trait that contradicts what it is supposed to have, such as an Amelanistic animal showing Melanin. Feel free to look up the definition of Paradox. Like discussed in the above link, almost all, if not all Toffees were/are reported to exhibit some amount of Melanin even if in trace amounts. If this is true, then that would suggest to me that these might be considered more of a Hypomelanistic animal than an Amelanistic animal exhibiting a paradoxical trait.

Of course this is all academic conjecture on my part based on other's observations of Toffee coloration and of course based on actual genetic definitions.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Thank you Troy for participating in the thread and for your insight.

Thank you Troy for participating in the thread and for your insight.

You are welcome!

However, I hate for this to be just a one-way type of discussion; so what are your views and opinions? Please share with the rest of us what your discussions with others have been on these and what your overall understanding and opinions are of the genetics.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Well a couple of observations that were shared with me are that the toffee belly eggs become translucent right before pipping, which I haven't heard of with "hypos". I've also learned that toffees often have black flecking on their bellies which "hypos" do not. A couple of breeders I've spoken to have crossed the two and don't produce visuals (all double hets). Sorry That this is all I have to contribute at this time as I'm very new to these specific hog morphs.

toffee belly eggs become translucent right before pipping, which I haven't heard of with "hypos".

Actually, this isn't exclusive to Toffees but apparently is a bit more common for whatever reasons. However, based on this thread, this isn't always true with all Toffee clutches. In fact, this transparency is commonly found on several species of snakes and it is often referred to as "egg windows". You can Google this and read several threads on several different forums including this one. While I've never witnessed any of my clutches ever have a completely transparent egg, I do get transparent spots, some more so than others, as can be seen here in my Superconda/Anaconda clutch hatching out:

As you can see, the far left egg is probably 90% transparent showing an Anaconda while the egg above is just has a small "window" showing that that snake is a Superconda. Even the egg in the middle that is pipping has enough of a window to show that that one is an Anaconda too.

Having said all of that, I don't put too much stock in egg windowing/transparency being all that big of a deal, especially in regards to Toffees.

I've also learned that toffees often have black flecking on their bellies which "hypos" do not. A couple of breeders I've spoken to have crossed the two and don't produce visuals (all double hets). Sorry That this is all I have to contribute at this time as I'm very new to these specific hog morphs.

You are pretty much at the same junction that I am at with Toffees other than "Hypos" also, in my opinion, tend to be more red than most Toffees I have seen although I have seen some red Toffees. From the majority of Toffees I've seen, they seem to have a creamier kind of color to them whereas "Hypos" look more like an extreme red "albino" without being compatible with "albino" lines.

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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

well written Troy!
We have just limited experience with Evans Amels, but for all I can see (in pictures too) the Toffee Bellies have a slightly darker look with more contrast. ALL Toffee Bellies have the black spots all over the body...in a variing amount...but in hatchlings the spots are most obvious on the belly. I would not call the spots "paradox", because they are part of the mutation and not out of ordenary

I know that the few black spots would fit the definition for "hypo melanism", but the Toffees have traits of T plus amelanism too. So this rules out the hypo for me. Otherwise you would need to call the Banana / Coral Glow Ballpython a hypo too

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/coral-glow/

as for the transparency in the Toffee eggs...like Troy did say...some do it and others dont

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Greetings from Berlin
Stefan & Raimo

Reptiles-Breeding-Enterprise.com

Hello again Troy. I'm very familiar with windows in reptile eggs. I've never seen a whole egg be transluscent though, which is why I thought there was something more to it. Obviously since you showed pics of the anacondas doing the same thing I would agree it's not an "indicator" exclusive to toffies. Good thread so far...