Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Basically, I'm in the market for another pair of milks this season... either Sinaloans, Nelsons, or Pueblans but i'd like the real deal/ pure animals.

After getting my first milks last year (black milks), i've got the bug. I figure if i'm going to shell out my hard earned money on some more, they need to be good ones.

the classifieds are filled with a lot of obvious mutts being sold as pure, but there are also some that look pretty good, but i'm not enough of an expert on milks to be certain on a lot of them.

any help pointing me in the right direction or info on who i can trust would be greatly appreciated.

How can you trust someone on the internet and how can you totally trust someone thats about to make money.Im sure there are pleanty of honest breeders but how will you know? Where did the breeder get the snakes? DO you trust the guy he got them from 15 years ago.Most of the guys here in this forum can be trusted so my advise is to buy from the guys that posts here.They have a passion for milk snakes. Dell, Cole DougM Joecop ,dniles,Joe Fraser and others all have milks and they are not about making money.They keep snakes cause they like snakes.If I kept the snakes you mentioned I would offer you them for free.
Good luck
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"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

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Doug L

"How can you trust someone on the internet and how can you totally trust someone thats about to make money.Im sure there are pleanty of honest breeders but how will you know? Where did the breeder get the snakes? DO you trust the guy he got them from 15 years ago.Most of the guys here in this forum can be trusted so my advise is to buy from the guys that posts here.They have a passion for milk snakes. Dell, Cole DougM Joecop ,dniles,Joe Fraser and others all have milks and they are not about making money.They keep snakes cause they like snakes.If I kept the snakes you mentioned I would offer you them for free."

I can't agree more, you can really only do your own homework on the animals. The guys that are listed above have documented to their best abilities on where,when and by whom the originals were captured or imported in from or by themselves.
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Doug, I am honored I am included in such great company on that list!!! To the original OP, I wish I kept the ssp you are looking for, but I don't. Like Doug mentioned, myself and many others here do not do this for the money, and if money is made it is to offset the price of keeping and breeding the animals. Do your homework and ask around, there are some good men on that list that I am sure can help in finding what you are looking for. I am glad you want the "real deal" as mother nature made it too!!!

"I only have a drinking problem when my bottle is empty!"

Joe

probably a typo involved... I'm sure Doug meant Joe_M...

Just funning now mind you.

Gerry

LOL............ I thought the same thing Gerry.

Joe

I meant DougM / Doug Mong Do I have the name wrong ?
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"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

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Doug L

"I meant DougM / Doug Mong Do I have the name wrong?"

Thanks for also including me on that list of good guys too, Doug (the other Doug)..LOL!. That also means quite a bit to me as well...

It might have been the way it was written, and wasn't typed as my forum username (DMong).

I do know that John Fraser breeds high-quality snakes and is a very trustworthy, devoted breeder, but I am not so sure that Joe Fraser (Joe Frazier) ever bred snakes. That is what I think got confused between Joe M. and John Fraser. I think Joe Frazier was too busy with his boxing carrer to mess with snakes much.

.messin' with ya too of course buddy!..

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

I sure ain't gonna tell Smokin' Joe his snakes ain't pure

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"He's down in the basement staring at his snakes " My Wife

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Doug L

That's right Doug.
Joe Frazier was a heavyweight in the business. I hear his snakes were knockouts!

"Joe Frazier was a heavyweight in the business. I hear his snakes were knockouts!"

HAHAA!!... very true!!, and even if they weren't, you'd sure better say they are (as Doug L. illustrated above) or you could find youself lying flat on your back not even knowing what your own name is!..

Ali just told Joe that he bred hybrid mutts and look what happened..LOL!

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

HAHAHAA!!!!.......

I don't think I would advise that either..LMAO!!!

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

Try BHB Reptiles. pretty much anything you get from them is bred in house.

"Try BHB Reptiles. pretty much anything you get from them is bred in house."

I won't knock on any business but what does in house breeding have to do with being "true blue" or best examples of certain species? I don't know where BHB acquired his stock from so I can't comment on his lines. I do know "Hybrids" are bred in house, that doesn't make them "true blue" examples of any certain species or sub-species.
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Yeah, if I were looking for a genuinely authentic, and/or locality-specific line of say.....true L.t.sinaloae with ZERO nelsoni influence in their lineage, or attempting to locate a totally authentic Dave Blody line of L.t campbelli from the Zapotitlan Basin of Puebla, Mexico, circa 1985, I don't think BHB would be my very first stop either Jimmy...

BHB does breed lots of other stuff however and has a great reputation.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

I wasn't thinking so much about purity or lineage when I posted this reply. I was thinking quality animals namely.

Yeah, I very much dig what you were saying there. By the same token, many breeders (including me) also think of "quality" snakes as being totally un-compromised with any other species or subspecies and like to see them key-out in all of their meristic features as absolutely textbook as possible (unless of course it's an authentic aberrant animal). Traceable locality data is often a huge plus as well if this can be obtained or shared. Don't get me wrong though, generic snakes are great too, and I have plenty of them as well as long as they are exactly what they are said to be (hobby Hondo disclaimer..LOL!).

This definitely isn't so important to a large percentage of the hobby though, and as long as the snakes are healthy and nice looking, that is what counts and all is good.

All the above are exactly the reasons that I have these authentic L.t.abnorma and love working with other real-deal stuff as well. Most people in the herp hobby would definitely think these are simply "Honduran" milksnakes. VERY few Hondurans are actually the real-deal in the hobby either, but there are many legitimate reasons for this and they cannot be recalled and started all over again. I like them a great deal and enjoy working with them, but accept them as what they are. Subspecific authenticity is extremely important to me and many others. Some snakes are very obvious, while others definitely aren't, and snakes that have been crossed somewhere along the line don't really cut it unless they are a naturally occurring intergrade that represent a specific locale. Man-made crosses have no appeal to me at all, even though many certainly do look nice and pleasing to the eye. Others feel the very same way, and others of course don't feel real strongly about it.

I know this might sound ridiculous to some folks, and that's okay too, but it's no different than many hardcore car buffs or gun collector aficionado's that want to see all the different part numbers match up perfectly and the item is all totally original and as genuine as possible with no added on parts from other sources. that is where a good portion of the real value lies for me and others, that's all. I just wanted to explain how important this side of it is with some hobbyists.

cheers, ~Doug

old Calvert County, Maryland L.t.temporalis from the mid 90's

Outer Banks kingsnake

old school 50-50 Desert phase Cal. king from the 90's

a true L.t.hondurensis with no polyzona, stuarti, abnorma, oligozona, or any other Latin milk in it's lineage.

Scarlet kingsnake (L.t. elapsoides)

One of the nicest Nelson's milksnakes anyone could ever HOPE to see!

Anyway,..yeah, this stuff is very important to me and others..
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

Doug, all fantastic animals that I know you have the history on!! Folks have to be real careful these days should they want actual locality animals and make sure they ask lots of questions prior to purchasing. (should they want real locality) We must remember that even us "locality nuts" will choose the best hatchlings and then breed them down the line, ending up with locality animals that pretty much would represent the best animals you could ever find in that locale, but probably not what most would look like. Of course when I go herping and keep an animal it will not be the "norm" either!! They get released!! Anyway, I enjoy breeding real locality, mostly animals I caught, and then trying to capitalize on certain traits that I like within the locality in order to get even better looking offspring. One of the great things about this will be to look at pics of the founding stock down the road and see how several generations compare!! I too have just a couple "fun" snakes, but if I ever parted with them they would be advertized as such. 90 percent of my collection (founding stock) was either caught by me or one of my friends. I would not sell any of my animals to someone if I knew they would cross breed them, and never, I mean NEVER would I sell a wild caught animal. Something that drives me nuts!! Of course I still have yet to sell anything and my wife is getting less and less tolerant!! LOL

Joe

Very well said, Joe. I tell that very same thing to folks too. The fact that certain snakes may have "originated" from a certain locale, DEFINITELY doesn't necessarily mean that they look just like the majority of other snakes in that particular locale. It simply means that is whee the founding stock was captured. It is exactly as you said, and it is human nature to not generally choose breeder stock for their drab patterns and/or coloration, but rather selective traits that stound out and are very pleasing to the eye.

As we both know, Lee Abbott's Okeetee corns are not exactly what most corns in Jasper county necessarily look like, although there are definitely some gorgeous ones there too that can look similar to his selectively-bred line...

Same exact thing with Cosala Sinaloans, etc.... I guarantee most of the Sinaloans in the state of Cosala, Mexico don't necessarily look quite as eye popping as Dave Niles' Sinaloans, or necessarily always have guite as wide red body rings and thin black rings..LOL!

Come to think of it, I don't think the majority of bullsnakes in the Stillwater, Oklahoma area are smoking yellow hypos either..

Why the heck is that??..*shrug*..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

....whee??......stound??.........D'OH!!!

wow!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

It is very sad that just the simple and natural forms of our beloved snakes are simply not that common anymore, as they were, let's say, in the early nineties and before. IMO, the natural forms should be as common and popular as any morph out there. Now, these days, to find the real so-and-so of certain species, like you imply, is very hard to even find these days.
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Genesis 1:1

In Doug's above post he listed a few guys that are real good choices to contact. I work with all three that you listed and I have lineage on two of the 3 species you listed.(Sinaloae line from the 70's, and nelsoni from a wild caught female x a seven generation amel male)

All I can say is really do your homework until you feel you are getting what you want. Ask questions on this forum or PM some of us we would give you our best educated guess if we don't know the exact lineage.

I have traced back lineage on a few lines and came up empty handed and actually turned down working with them because something was missing in the lineage. I wish you the best and be sure to contact some of the guys here, some of us work with some old lines and continue to keep them that way. Glad to see you wanting to keep lines pure for the next generation of keepers.
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Your story sounds rather like mine... I started out with Black Milk given to me by my son (nategodin here on the forum...he doesn't speak much... perhaps because I speak too much )... four years later I realized I wanted more.

With the mistaken believe of a newbie I thought that all ssp's of milks were readily available and decided that L.t. abnormas were what I wanted next... it didn't take long to find out that that believe was far from the truth... however, with a stroke of good luck all but unknown in my life it just so happened that the one and only person known to have real deal abnormas had contacted me a few months earlier on an entirely different matter... so I now have 0.1 of the pair of abnormas I wanted... hopefully the male is in an egg right now.

I have no interest at the moment in nelsons or pueblans so haven't researched them at all... but if you're looking seriously at sinaloans I'd say talk with KcTrader, Dniles or Scott Ballard... all have some [bleep]ing examples of the real deal animals you're looking for.

What the others have said I second, especially what KcTrader has said... look to the people posting here on the forum for your "real deal" animals... from what I've seen so far your best is with them.

Gerry

Not sure about breeders for pueblans and nelsons these days but Dave Niles has some amazing Cosala Sinaloan milks, which are probably the best looking sinaloan milks out there.
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www.kingpinreptiles.com

I tried replying to your email but it keeps bouncing go ahead and send another...
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