Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was trying to keep up with all the good debating going on in the Sand King thread last night, as I was driving from load to load. I'm glad it didn't get too ugly too. Congratulations! I would like to just add, that many times we percieve as we believe. What maight seem like sharing to one observer may look like careful nervous feeding to another observer. I had someone tell me once, that his kings escapes, and he found them both near by, and together. This was put fourth as evidence for what he percievd to be "Bonding". I explained that my Kings were also showing the strange behavior. Where ever the female went, the males would follow like a heat seeking missle, lol. I imagine if the top of one of those enclosiers were left open, the male would follow the female all over my house, and eventually rest right beside her. It was the peak of breedind season, and what looked like Bonding, was merely an expression of breeding. I think we are all guilty of seeing what we want to. Many good points were brought up on both sides of the arguements, however all the examples of Bonding were with totally different animals, than the ones in question which were the Common Kings, more specifically Floridana. That is unless I missed something?
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Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

The mistake here being made by some is that since they house kings together, they must be bonding and they prefer this as it is natural. Wrong. Just because their animals do fine this way does NOT mean they live like this in the wild. I could house some kings with rattlesnakes and they may do fine for years. Does that mean they are bonding? NO. Does that mean they prefer to live in groups with other snakes? NO.

To those that house kings together, it's great they do well for you. But please stop trying to make everyone think this way is preferred by them, is natural, is healthier, etc for the animals. You choose to keep your animals that way so fine. Why all the pressure from you guys to make everyone else think like you do? You're almost like some religious group trying to convert everyone!

Nobody,
Please explain your way and how it differs from what a carsheet told you.
Also what do you have to add to any of the conversations other than it doesn't happen in the wild when you don't know yourself if it does or doesn't.

I've definitely found pairs and trios of colubrids together in the wild.
Ratsnakes, splendida and holbrooki....

I don't use the term bond at all.
I do get to see things that some here speculate about....including you.

I never tell anyone they ahold change their husbandry techniques unless it has something to do with improper temps, humidity, lighting, nesting provisions and the such.

But maybe you weren't even speaking about me.....lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Jlassiter,

I think the term bonding came up when others who so vehemtly say that kingsnakes will eat eat other if kept together. Even longer term captives that they call bonded , but in fact are not bonded..

You will also see a pattern here of people who have limited field herping experince of a different opinion and those with just a few years under their belt and/or limited geographic lifezone experinces. At this time (I should say in the last 20 years) true field herpers don't into contact with herpetoculrists. Why? because commercial collection stopped because commercial breeding took off. It didn't used to be so. it used to be the guys who feild collected also learned to use that ecology to house and breed stuff. So in a sense that crossover has come to a standstill since the 70's.

The bonded animals who were housed together at a young age do not eat each other or kill each other over a prey item! So there is a common denominator here...Properly bonded kings eat each other and unbonded (or improperly bondedkings do). That is why we are having these discussions. because of fear of past experiences. That is the data they base their assumptions on. So they speculate and...ASSume things.

So if by bonding them they do not eat each other. And improper attempts to bond them they do cannibalize. This is where those who watch their animals tend to beleive what they learned instead of beleiving what they see (I should say havn't seen yet, because NONE of them tried)that is what listening to your animals means.
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Observing them in a cage by themsleves with set temps and deciding when to feed is hardly natural or healthy for the snakes.

Bluerosy

You are doing what suits you. which is fine, but its not about the animal, its about you. Your requirements.

Frank Retes

www.Bluerosy.com

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So you assume because you can do it in a cage it is the natural way they do it in the wild. That's like saying, I keep them at one temp and feed them once a week and get eggs every year, it must be what they do in the wild.
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I should clarify more what i meant about those field herpers with limited experince of today.

Back in the commercial collecting days that is how herpers put food on the table. that is how they fed their families. So do you tghink they went hiking in the woods and picked up a lone kingsnake? NO! They had to dicover the snakes ecology. To find them in large groups. They knew how, when and where. There are a lot of secrets theat will never be given away. You have to EARN those things. And when one does. by that time they will not have raped the land and appreciate what learning about the snakes is all about.

Field herping knowledge today is exactly like the recipe for housing snakes individually. people want to know exactly where to go to find a snake and they want you to point to the exact spot, hill, tree, lake, and exact rock to lift. Then they call themselves field herpers. LOL! The same with captive husbandry. people don't want to learn from the snakes. And it won't be given away. People like FR do things the way they should be taught to further advance herpetoculture. And that is to allow people to work through the problems themselves and not just get a recipe or rock to lift where he told them to. He gives a few short answers and then asks more questions of you.

This is te real part that is missed in herpetoculture today. the internet and people demading answers when in fact they will never learn anything that way. They need to get dirty and sweaty and stress and think. Then you can call yourselve a herpetoculturist or field herper. Otherwise you are still just a child who bought his first TFH book at the pet shop.

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Observing them in a cage by themsleves with set temps and deciding when to feed is hardly natural or healthy for the snakes.

Bluerosy

You are doing what suits you. which is fine, but its not about the animal, its about you. Your requirements.

Frank Retes

www.Bluerosy.com

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Edited on May 30, 2012 at 10:53:42 by PHFaust.

I actually agree with that 100%.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Nobody----that is the best post I have seen in a long time. I don't totally disagree with the bonding theory, that is to say bonding does not happen at all, I don't know. However, for those of us who choose not to do so and have a thriving collection----why risk something that NO PERSON knows for sure that the snakes like. Hell, they might not like living alone, I don't know, but neither does anyone else!! At least I don't worry about seeing one fat snake in the enclosure come morning. Maybe it is about me and not the snakes, but if it was about what is BEST for the snakes I would let them all go.

Joe

One more thing. I certainly am not, nor ever will be a cutting edge guru. Dont care to be either. However, I spend LOTS of time in the field as I am retired and herp four to five times A WEEK all spring, summer , and fall. I have yet to witness bonding. I have found this---which I posted before. (once again, not saying boding does not happen at all, as it MIGHT, but I have never seen it in kingsnakes and milks in MY AREA)

ever field herp? the same area for many years?
i have.
ive found many getula in groups in the wild, many i see year after year after year. not only the same area which obviuosly means its good habitat, but the same individuals. are they bonded? i dunno i apply bonding to captive situations for my benefit. but i will say there are group dynamics involved in those wild getula otherwise i wouldnt be seeing the same individuals year after year after year together. do they share food or hunt in packs, i seriously doubt it, but maybe???

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thmas,
The prey items present themselves much like I drop food into a container. First come first serve. A zonata in a crevice does the same think when a skink or sceloperous comes by. Rubber boas may find a nest of baby mice and share and gourge themselves. They don't eat each other. Maybe sharing is the wrong term. But that is how we describe it because we are forced to defend it. They don't eat each other yet live in groups. How someone explains this is only because we percieve these animals as cannibalistic..
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Observing them in a cage by themsleves with set temps and deciding when to feed is hardly natural or healthy for the snakes.

Bluerosy

You are doing what suits you. which is fine, but its not about the animal, its about you. Your requirements.

Frank Retes

www.Bluerosy.com

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You assume there are not individual animals that are eaten. Please use examples of floridana sharing and socializing in wild groups. Is it just because you think zonata are social, all snakes are?
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Why would seeing the same animals in a area, make you think they are social?
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Heres the problem, and please take this in context, if experience were rocket fuel, you couldn't launch a pencil, or if it was gasoline, you couldn't power a peeants motorcycle halfway around a BB.

Now that the jokes are over with. All you do is theorize to and fro. grab that info there, and here, or over there. No related and out of context data, hahahahahahahahaha do you get that?

Stop with the dang theory and DO SOMETHING. Some of us have been doing what your doing NOW since the 60's and we produced healthy strong snakes for sale,just like you do now, only way more and for a way longer time. In fact, many of the lines here now WERE PRODUCTS of those days. Your not NEW. And your not doing anything thats not done a million times over.

Yet you act like what your doing is something new. ITs only new to you. And that is a great thing.

The point is, in the next 10 or 15 years, you may get like some of us older folks, get tired of doing the same old thing over and over, and DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

You know like try and raising groups and actually SEE WHAT BONDING IS. because at this time, you haven't the foggist idea what it is.

In the field, we see the same individuals attend, hang out and copulate, year after year, after year. Yet, they are in a group of many. That is bonding. They choose to be with an individual, they choose to work with an individual. They live with that individual. With varanids, when they bond, the male will help make the nest and protect it. And share food, if its not starving. and so much more. Bonding does not exclude groups, nor a few females instead of one, one is a human thing.

There are studies going on right now that suggest that even in dens, there are as many as three different groups, that while they are in the same den, do not socialize with the other groups in that den.

We see this with many many species INCLUDING KINGS.

The cool part that was and can be dulicated in captivity, and its EASY, if a person would just shut their trap and actually do something. You've been told what to do.

Consider, behavior is NOT EXACT and has ranges and degrees, groups raised together can have a totally different degree of bonding, then two put together in winter, which is not bonding, its simply introducing. dang if naivity was pain, you would be screaming. hahahahahahahahahahaha

The point is, this has been explained to you a million times, but you simply do not have the education to understand it, HOW CAN YOU? YOUR NEW. Get out and learn, learn in the field, learn in captivity, learn by research, but stop the learning thru babble.

At this point, Just do it! Go buy sports shoes first, then DO IT!, Just do it, TEST THE FRIGGIN THING YOURSELF

Then when you screw up, you can ask what you did wrong. As I am sure you will. Cheers and best wishes Remember, Humor

When you got bored you thought, let's see if this works? Have you seen a group of getula, share food in the wild?
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Gerard, in my thirty plus years of herping I have not witnessed that!!! I have seen what happens when I try feeding kings together and I learned from it.
I don't have the field experience of Frank. Not many, if any here do. I do try different things and learn from MY experiences though. Bottom line is no snake, or animal for that matter, is ever going to act the same in captivity as it would in the wild.

"Bottom line is no snake, or animal for that matter, is ever going to act the same in captivity as it would in the wild"

True, and by the same token, nobody is ever going to KNOW exactly what they always do in nature at all times either....just bits and pieces of what people might perceive them as doing, .....or NOT doing as the case may be.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

The common demoninator that I always continually see here is that you and your buddies are just overly-obsessed with the thought of notoriety as some sort of leading expert "cutting-edge" herpetoculturalists and authorities of the kingsnakes entire natural history, when in fact this just isn't the case. All it really boils down to at the end of the day is that you guys choose to do it differently than most, and that ids fine if you choose to. I could do it that way too if I wanted to. The fact that you guys are always telling everyone else that they are not experienced enough to join your untouchable ranks or are unable to do it this way because everyone else other than your herp buddies are too stupid regarding how snakes go about their daily live is pure poppycock!

I have seen so many direct questions in this thread being AVOIDED like the plague at all costs, and whenever a simple straight answer cannot be given, they dream up some other topic or story to help fill in all the holes to evade the real questions. Or better yet portray to everyone that you and your buddies hold the answer to the universe in your golden shrines, but won't devulge the meaning of all getula life in the universe to the "little" people of the hobby. Dodging simple and direct questions doesn't reinforce your cause so well.

Alot of this reminds me of ancient sailors that would perceive the world as being flat simply because they "witnessed" the the vast oceans to "seemingly" go on and on until you would logically fall off the end. Those guys made up stuff as they went along too so others would also believe this stuff as fact. Truth is that they "thought" they knew exactly what the deal was because that's what it looked like to them at the time.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"some are just born to troll and roll"

FR the real problem is you are soooo convinced you are THE only one with all the answers! You make assumptions about me, yet you know nothing about me! I have kept kings in groups and still do to some extent. I did it when I was a teenager many years ago. You and your sarcastic remarks don't impress me one tiny bit, they do just the opposite. I really enjoy stimulating debates, and can be open to different ideas when presented in a civil manner, like Aaron, and others here, but you know when people are grasping at straws when they begin to insult others, like you love to do, also Rainer, and Davis. Like little grade school kids who can't get their way. Grow up! We can disagree, and that's fine, but if we don't convert to your way of thinking, we are ridiculed.
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Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

an·thro·po·mor·phism/ˌanTHrəpəˈmôrˌfizəm/

Someone most likely has already mentioned this but I am too tired to read all the posts...
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.