This is my third year experimenting with the choices and bonding methods. Those of you who have been following know that the first two years were abysmal failures. Failures have been attributed to the snakes needing to adjust to the new environment, a perceived lack of interest on my part based on the fact that I really didn’t think maximum production was a good thing when the demand was down due to the economy and the males not being fertile due to staying on the heat too much.
Out of the gate I lost a prime male to his cage mate of three years. These animals had been together since yearlings. Breeding wise year three isn’t shaping up much better. Three of four thayeri clutches have been laid and I now have a total of 7 good eggs in the incubator. The last clutch of 11 slugs was from long term breeders who in past years were very reliable. Fertility from the other two clutches was well below 50%.
The one pair of temporalis I raised with this method did well and gave me a good though small clutch of six eggs. Relative to thayeri, temporalis seem to do fairly well on this regimen. A pair of first time breeder goini gave me 8 fertile eggs and a pair of first time breeder Okettee corns gave me 3 good eggs out of a clutch of 20. The up side is that this is much better production than the first two years however I also re-instituted a brief hibernation period. My emerging thoughts are that this method might work better with some species than with others.
I feel like the prime flaw in the method is that given high levels of inputs the males spend too much time on the heat. This is either because they’re failing to switch interest from feeding to breeding or are on the heat with the females as they digest their food. In either case I think they choose to be on the heat too much and as a result fertility is cross the board low even among males that have been quite solid breeders in the past.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson
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Choices Year 3
Replies (10)
Tony, sorry to hear things are going bad again. I too tried the choices method this year. Guess what-----slugville!! My buddy has vision racks with very long tubs and can get away with a little more then me but I too found the males become infertile due to excessive time on high heat. Going back to my normal method that worked.
Joe
Hopefully you'll get some nice hatchlings this season....
Ya know, with "choices" and all....I'm thinking that in nature they have some degree of choice but temps do fall in the winter and there's little they can do but get as comfy as possible. There may not be a heat source that gives them a 75F spot in the winter....at least not the snakes from north of FL!
BTW I'm befuddled that my "new favorite" eastern will not breed any of my others....
Kevin says his won't breed 'til they're at least 3 but I'm guessing she's at least 3 and likely 5-6.....
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!
also, I gave my kids choice of homework or fishing.....guess which they picked...
Can't assume all choices are the right ones....
but it IS hereditary...I picked fishing too....
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!
Yep, me too.
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Gerard
"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "
Nice snook!!!
Joe
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson
Hopefully you take this is the right way.
Choices mean the right choices, Not just any choice.
Your results tell you very clearly your not providing the right choices. Nor are you keep up with the animals, by your own admission.
Also if I was going to test a method, I would use animals that have already been exposed to a "different" method.
I would recomend starting with hatchlings and adjust the choices until you attain really strong growth, then adjust it again until you recieve really strong reproductive effort.
The really good thing about choices is, the keeper gets to participate and adjust until the potential these fine animals have is expressed.
Just to say, choices is really odd, as between a rock and a hardplace are choices too, just not good ones. Cheers
Frank I know better than to spend time taking your posts apart but let me just say that I'm a rather experienced and accomplished breeder and have been for the better part of 20 years.
I like the choices concept only because it provides opportunity to observe more behavior. That said all I have done is allow for "bonding" (communal housing), increased the thermal gradient by about 5 degrees in each direction and provided multiple hides which basically mimic the thermal gradient plus add a humidity element.
Also while I admit that in the prior two years I was not invested in getting actual results this year I am and have been going 100%
Also as far as the thayeri go I've got a mix of older breeders that I was quite successful with prior to changing protocols as well as younger animals that have known nothing else. Both groups have done poorly.
Health wise everyone looks great! I'd even say they're happier but the males are not hitting it. Like I said they are either on the heat digesting the increased food they're taking or are constantly courting females who are also on the heat digesting food.
Note that I'm not having bad results all around. I just came home to a clutch of good eastern king eggs and expect another good one after that. The bairds rats look like they are a go too.
The thayeri however have been a bust three years running. Odd because I thought of all the animals I work with they're the most associated with more rocky habitats that would facilitate non seasonal activity in the wild.
As far as adjusting this protocol, believe me I will. Things are going to remain the same except that they're going to get the proper cycling via a hibernation period and they are going to be kept separate during the breeding season (except for the obvious) with the males at a slightly lower temp and on a less vigorous feeding schedule.
Anyway still having fun even if a bit frustrated.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson
Tony,
I appreciate you posting your results good and bad. I look forward to seeing what happens with your animals when you make the changes you mentioned.
A friend of mine kept 2 pairs of pyros in a heated room with where he kept boa constrictors. The background temp stayed in the 78-80 range, and he bred his pyros 2 years in a row with 100% fertility. Go figure, I don't know what to think.
