Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Having a pair bond, has nothing to do with offering a wide range of choices you snakes can make. Its a method to allow two or more KINGSNAKES to live in harmoney in the same cage. It doesn't matter if its a big cage or a shoe box. Its about a working compatibility.

The degrees of bonding, starts there and can become much more important and entertaining. With Lizards such as varanids, which were thought to be solitary much more then kings. It is easy to see all manner of extrovert signs, Holding hands, kissing, touching, etc.

Hibernation, brumation and choices. This often is very confusing as most do not understand where these snakes are coming from. Most keepers think kings as warm and you cool them in the winter. Where, I as a field herper, understand them as cool loving at all times and seek heat to accomplish certain needs. For instance, all snakes not under some metabolistic pressure, seek cool, that is, 55F to 65F year a round.

During times of reproductive need or digestion or shedding, they seek hotter temps, depending on need. This includes neonates that will stay on heat as long as there is food.

So if you want to offer choices, you start with a cool base, like 55F to 70F and add a range of temps up to 100F or so. And allow them to seek whatever they want. THIS WORKS. AND WORKS WELL.

I use my silly examples and as silly as they are, they are true, We find snakes out and active at temps ranging from just above freezing, to in the forties all the time.

Whats even funnier, python folks talk about hibernating or brumating pythons, yet, I have found five species of pythons crossing the road at temps between 50 and 60F. I would say because they were crossing the road, they were not hibernating.

ALso because I find snakes active all winter and moving a temps below what most of you call hibernation or brumation temps, They too are not hibernating.

of course in climates where they have no option but to use cool temps and cannot surface because of freezing temps, they will stay down. Please let me remind you, the vast majority of colubrids and many of the species you keep, come from areas that do not FREEZE and they have no need to stay down, and surely they don't. I cannot believe you Fla. folks don't understand that.

When I first lived in Fla, many many years ago, the real commerical collectors did not bother to hunt in the summer, they did the vast majority of their collecting in the winter.

This year on our study site, the one with cameras, there were snakes out and active every month of the year. And it even snowed a couple of times on my cameras.

So choices must be appropriate to the animals behavior, That is, cool base with the ability to seek whatever heat they want. Not, warm and hotter, that will surely end up with stressed snakes and infertility.

Again the problem is assumption. Many assume conditions based on THEM and not the animals.

Also something you miss altogether, In nature when the cool season comes, most colubrids move to areas with more heat, they do so to extend their active season.

Also many things can control active and non active behavior. In the vast majority of the world, its more attuned to wet season and dry season, not cold and hot.

Then theres the huge misconception about being active, what is that. When they do things pertaining to behavior, or when they cross roads. The truth is, they rarely cross roads and doing that rarely has anything to do if they are active or not.

A funny example, I have rattlesnakes that come and take food(mice) they are wild. What is funny is, that does not correspond with when we are finding snakes on the road. And we live in areas with lots of DOR's

Now let me go back to being FRANK, I am calling you tester/experiment folks, you know, Doug or Tony, or both. I am calling BS you you.

The reason I am calling you out is, I do not remember you asking or doing anything I do or did, or anything BR does.

Whats funny is, when you fail, you say, I tried your method, Which is total BS, you tried your own method. You did not start with neonates, you did not offer a base of cool temps, you did not offer methods in which the snakes can seek the temps they want, both out and in dark secure places. You did not feed when they were hungry(often daily) You also did not duplicate our results. Therefore, you did NOT use our methods.

So while you experimented, you did so in a very naive way, you made up your own tests, and I agree, your method appears to not have worked. But please, do not say you used our method. That is a bald faced lie.

With varanids we heard that all the time, FR I did what you did and it did not work. I would say, no you didn't, or it would have worked.

With that in mind, WHAT DID YOU DO, please explain, because I am sure both BR and I can find a whole bunch of things that made your methods not OURS. Cheers

Well FR, BR said that boding was about giving them choices,not so much about living together. I would start by getting your theories straight.
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

A couple of things, ITs not theory when its applied and works. Which we have both, BR and I, have done many many times.

Next, I am not BR and he is not FR. WE do many things alike, like our basic respect for the animals, but also do and think of many things differently.

The great part of that is, we recieved very similar results. Our methods both have explored the upper levels of our snakes potential.

ABout theory, we do and have done what we speak of, so its not theory. You on the otherhand do not do this, so its theory to you. Our convesation to you is to help you get your theory in working order so you could actually try it and have a good chance of having it work, if you decided to ever apply it. Which of course you do not have to.

If you did try it now, you would only be a copy cat. So please don't.

The problem is, with each and every method, will fail if done poorly, or misunderstood. And surely you are not understanding anything we say.

The problem again is, you seem to want to fight understanding and not actually want to learn anything. Thats based on your confrontational questioning instead of inquesitive questioning. From my point of view, you folks are attacking, well you are.

I keep saying you can and should go on doing whatever your doing. That has nothing to do with understanding other methods and work well.

I do fail to understand why your so narrow minded. But then, its not my problem, that would be yours.

Also, I don't understand why you even bother to post on OUR threads. If you have no interest in this, why even bother? To me, that is a great question.

I do wonder, lots of newbies come here with a 10 gallon tank, screen lid, indoor outdoor carpet, and half round hollow piece of plastic wood and water bowl and a UT heater(petshop setup), and you say nothing. hahahahahahahahahahahahaha how odd, you only attack those you precieve to have better results then you. Funny I think. Cheers

Here is a question that I am curious about. Both you and BR, use egg production, and by that I mean viable hatching eggs od course, as a guide to whether a snake is in it's upper range, as you put it. My question is...has anyone taken any real data comparing, the one or two clutches we normally get, to what you guys claim to be pumping out? I mean, are you, and Br producing more in the long run, or is it just smaller clutches, all year round, when compared to larger production by others who do the winter cool down. I know I'm probably gonna regret even asking this, but please one of you give us some real data.
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Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

I just read your other post where you wrote this> In the seventies, I hatched and raised three alterna, by their 18th month the trio produced 66 hatchlings. At the same time, I hatched and raised 3 cal kings, that trio produced 99 hatchlings by their 18th month.

That is hard for me to believe, so if it's true, hats off to you, if not, shame on you, lol. Do you have the data in front of you? Please break it down to individual clutches/female with dates if you can?
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Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

Well, I will say, that post was the most understandable and to the point one you have ever done. I am not attacking you two at all, why do you feel that way? You, Rainer and Davis always feel like your under attack, it's probably from attacking first. You said that you and rosy have the same methods but you seem to have different ideas about what's happening.
The theory, is that they do this in the wild, being forced to do it in captivity doesn't prove that. Other species do it and its very well known, if someone showed me where it happens in the wild I would apologize to you.
I'm not here to help people, I like to learn other people's ideas. When I hear something I do not understand or agree with, I ask questions. If you feel threatened and under attack from not being able to answer them, I'm sorry, that's not my intention.
I understand just fine what you guys have done, I just don't understand why you think it's what they always do? Narrow mind? Thinking you have all the answers and do it the best way, seems narrow minded to me. Not that you don't know anything but you haven't even seen them in the wild doing it, why would you think you know better? I'm not saying I do either, just asking why you think you two do?
I do have interest in this, that's why you post on something.

You keep saying attack, why? Do you feel attacked? Maybe you should listen to what you write and realize you are not better then anyone. You think newbies should be attacked and don't understand the reasons you feel attacked, weird!
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Please try and understand this, All my posts to you are perfectly understandable to me. But you have to consider my experience level. WHich is different then yours. Any gap in education or experience level, makes it difficult to understand eachother. So the fact that I have bred kingsnakes since 1964 and have done field work since before that, makes it very difficult for me to understand you and you to understand me.

So when you read my posts, there are lots of things you do not understand, so you dismiss them or call them cryptic, or gibberish. They are not. They are very meaningful to me. As I am backed by experience. Both in the field and in captivity.

The simple fact that you call all this stuff theory, and I do not, I have seen groups, gatherings and bonding, and all such, commonly in nature, and in captivity. Its what WE STUDY in nature. Yet, you have not seen it and do not believe it exsist, so anything I say, about that, you cannot understand.

Which leads to your questions, you ask them, then dismiss the answers as wrong or it could be something else. Which is really a poor way to gain knowledge. First off, you are not suppose to BELIEVE anything, your suppose to be aware and or consider something. These things you are suppose to remember, then relate to eachother as you learn.

You needing to BELIEVE something will get you nowhere. Which is why your so very prejudiced, you have already believed things about these animals in nature that IS WRONG. So when you look at them, you only look to make them FIT what you already believe. That is being prejudiced. In truth, you have zero actual experience in the field. (that is gathered from your comments)

About your saying "it could be something else", what the heck does not mean, anything and everything could be something else. That type of thought will get you nowhere. This whole thing could be, an illusion.

I do understand why you say it, you do that because your all theory and feel you have to believe something TOLD to you. Gerard, This stuff was not told to me, I observed it. And its not about believing, its about repeated observations and repeated results. Real things, not words.

Let me ask you some questions and you answer them OK, I have watched a single pair of gila monsters for 33 years, Same individuals, in the same place. ARE they bonded? Consider, there are many many gilas in the same area, at times I would find 3 or 4 pairs within 50 Ft. So they could have been with any other individual they wanted. But they weren't, for 33 years. Would you call them bonded?

I also watch rattlesnakes and they do the same, on one hillside, there are three breeding sites, this hillside has over 100 individual snakes, yet the same exact individuals hang out at these three sites, EAch site, has its own individual snakes. And some individuals visit each site. Also there are many many spots between these sites where one or two individuals will stay. So would you can the ones that stay at the same site with the same other individuals and breed the same female, year after year, BONDED? If not, what would you call them?

I can go species after species with the same exact senario. But I am hoping you get the picture.

Those species include KINGSNAKES, which behavior no different then anyother of these species with this mode of behavior.

Then as I mentioned one million times, we repeated this in captivity with all manner of species, including kings, and if allowed, they will perform as they do in nature and pick(bond) and perfer certain individuals on others, and if allowed attend(which means to stay very near to) one or two other individuals and choose to allow copulation with that individual, over others. Is that some sort of bond?

Why I say, you attack is, you do not consider anything said, and use random questions that do not relate to the subject or the train of thought that will allow you to learn about the subject. You jump back and forth in some random line of questioning base on what you do not understand. I put to you, you really do not understand ethology/behavior in animals, so you line of questioning is about like a young person in first grade asking about some advanced subject. SImply put, yours and most here, have questions that are not in line with the subject. In line, is CONTEXT.

Your so very ignorant on behavior, that you really need to start simple and work your way up. So asking questions that you cannot understand the answer to, is of no value and will only confuse you. Which is why I requested that you study/research ethology. You need a base education before you attempt to figure any of this out.

Lastly, Its your task to ask the RIGHT questions and to do side research and educate yourself. BR or I are not paid or responsible to TEACH YOU ANYTHING, yet you expect that.

ITs your job to make it fun for us and make it easy for us, its not our job or responsibility to do anything with you.

You say, you want to learn from us, so telling us we are wrong is not an attack????? how funny is that?

The absolute truth is, you do not have to believe anything or do anything, but if you want to learn or possibly learn something, you have to take the conflict out of your approach. After all, my gut feeling is to tell you folks to go to heck, I really do not care what you do or understand. After all, the vast majority of the public do not understand reptiles or animals in any way. So whats a few more?

In the end, its about asking the right questions. If you do that, you can gain some insight, if not, forget about it.

Lastly, if you see two bald eagles hanging out together, and nesting together, year after year, you would not have a problem calling them a bonded pair, would you? If you see two alligators doing the same, would you call them bonded? Then if you saw two kingsnakes do the same, are they bonded? If not, why not?

What about giving the snakes kept in captivity a choice whether they want to be kept in a cage with other snakes 24/7, every single day of their lives? I doubt anyone here can argue that these so called groups of snakes bonding in the wild do not sit under the same board/tin/rock/etc. all together for their entire lifespan. They move around. Which is why a majority of the time kings are found alone. And in Spring, they can be found mating. So all grouped together in a cage for their entire lifespan is a bit far from normal or natural for them. Grouping them together at times may be on the right track to giving them the interactions they are used to in the wild. But not their entire lives day in and day out. If it's really about the snakes, why not do what is natural for them instead of doing what some here think they see in captivity and just assuming they're happier because the snakes are fine in their cages?

Ask John lassiter what his snakes do in his drawer type setups.

Also another successful breeder used the drawer setups in the 80's . I think there is some literature on what the snakes did.
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>>Ask John lassiter what his snakes do in his drawer type setups.

>> Also another successful breeder used the drawer setups in the 80's . I think there is some literature on what the snakes did.
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In the Spring and early Summer (breeding season) mated pairs are always together.....

In the Summer after they breed and eggs are done being laid this is not observed. Each snake chooses where it wants to be rather it be dry, cool, light, dark, damp, hot or any combination of each....

When I lower the temps for brumation they seem to hunker down together, but alot of the mexicana and montane kings will move about even in 40F temperature......Makes me wonder if I should warm them up and feed them or provide an isolated hot spot like others do to getula during "brumation."
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

When I lower the temps for brumation they seem to hunker down together, but alot of the mexicana and montane kings will move about even in 40F temperature......Makes me wonder if I should warm them up and feed them or provide an isolated hot spot like others do to getula during "brumation."

Well i never used heat during on montane kings. It's been many years since i worked with any. My imprssion always was they need it cooler. And my guess is they might shut down and not eat even if offerred food.

If it is 40 degrees in the snake encloser. I would try a very small hotspot. Like maybe one of the small zoo med pads (just because they are montane kings). And then see what happens. Maybe that's being to cautious. But a little experimentation this year might add a more relaxed approach next season.

If they sit on the pad, offer the females a couple small meals a month. They will be helthier come spring and might even breed before that.

I had an early season this year. They bred before I even got to really pour on the feeding . Eggs are already hatching.

Hey do you happen to have any pics of you enlcoser set up handy?
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I will certainly try a few different things with some to see what proves to be optimal......

And I will get some new shots of the set ups.....soon.....
As you and a few others know....I'm working on something too.....
Maybe one of these days I will get it complete......lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

When I lower the temps for brumation they seem to hunker down together, but alot of the mexicana and montane kings will move about even in 40F temperature......Makes me wonder if I should warm them up and feed them or provide an isolated hot spot like others do to getula during "brumation."
I don't think giving montanes a hot spot during brumation would be helpful. They need to be cool for an extended unbroken length of time. Mine are brumated at 45 to 50 F from November to February. During that time they do move around and drink water, but have no interest in feeding. In winter in the wild the prey would not be very much out and about, so it would serve no purpose for the snakes to have appetites they could not satisfy.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

sometimes the geographic location makes difference. My undertsanding is you are in the seirra mtn (or foothills?)at a high elevation . Whereas Jlassiter is in Texas. Also you have predominantly pyros and zonata(?) and john has mexicana.

Like a said. I don't know because i never tried. but a small hotspot in a cold (40F) room would be a great experiment. if they don't want to eat, then no harm no foul.

Experimination is how one learns to understand the animals. otherwise we would never be having these discussions and everyone would still doing the beginners recipe.
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If the males sat on the hotspot during the brumation it might impair their fertility. I have only pyros, can't speak for mexicana.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

If the males sat on the hotspot during the brumation it might impair their fertility.

Well there are different way to look at that. Males don't need that much BW since they don't ovulate and produce eggs. They only need the sperm. So you could put the females trogether and give them a hotspot (that is if you are worried about the males)and just do a forced freeze all winter. The males won't suffer. But the females will reward you with better health which you need for eggs production.

Second , I think people that provide hotspots that they say it kills the sperm, is to hot (either that and the room is to hot) the range of choices is not great enough.

It all comes down to "I don't know what they are doing" ...sometimes it is something as simple as it was too hot. If I don't see it, I can't tell what they did wrong.

Again i am referring to Jlassiter. I it is just my opinion (and i am probably wrong) that pyros and z's are more difficult in te location you are in. So if i was you i would leave it alone or try once toi see what happens with just the females. Then if it was sucessful i would add males ect.
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Well, I certainly have enough pyros to try this experiement. trouble is, nobody, male or female, wants to eat during the winter. They all go off feed in the fall and thats it until spring.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

>>sometimes the geographic location makes difference. My undertsanding is you are in the seirra mtn (or foothills?)at a high elevation . Whereas Jlassiter is in Texas. Also you have predominantly pyros and zonata(?) and john has mexicana.

>>Experimination is how one learns to understand the animals. otherwise we would never be having these discussions and everyone would still doing the beginners recipe.
>>-----

Yep.....all we would do here is get along, post pics and say....oooooo, aaaaaaaaa, so pretty like the BP keepers do......they have a set recipe for everything.......lol

The difference must be geographical as my pyros don't ever shut down.....I have to force brumation on them.......my males do shut down during breeding season but I think that is the result of being housed with females and their pheromones.

I have mexicana mainly but also keep zonata, alterna, pyros, knobs, holbrooki, splendida, californiae,, situla and diones........and I keep them all the same......if I kept BPs I'd probably keep them the same......lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Geographical location really must matter. I brumate all my reptiles on my bedroom floor. If I lived in the Gulf area of Texas I'd probably never brumate anybody, as I would have died of humidity long before hand! LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

LOL...
It is 93 today with about 80% humidity......
Heat index around 100F.......And its the beginning of June....
I can't wait until July and August when we sit inside and pay $1K a month for air conditioning......lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

so it is with different locations!
My beer is allways cold in the basement...

Here in germany my adult greeri,thayeri and alterna stops eating around september/october...and i can`t change that with extra heat/light etc...and the males start eating again in may!when the females laid the eggs...

And i have to add my 2cents about bonding:
I am keeping my snakes in groups(L.m.greeri &thayeri,L.alterna) and never had trouble with that...but it works only with 1 male per group!2 adult males fight without end !Anyone ever have longtime expierience with groups that had 2 or more adult males?
If you can answer this with YES, please explain me your setup?!

Don`t wanna jump on a getula-discussion with this, like i wrote i have asked about mexicana/alterna...

yours
Michael

And i have to add my 2cents about bonding:
I am keeping my snakes in groups(L.m.greeri &thayeri,L.alterna) and never had trouble with that...but it works only with 1 male per group!2 adult males fight without end !Anyone ever have longtime expierience with groups that had 2 or more adult males?
If you can answer this with YES, please explain me your setup?!
Only had two males(pyros) in one cage for several months; kept putting smaller "female" Zuni in with other two as part of trio but she was so unhappy, then I discovered she was a "he", and was afraid of the larger male.

Happy at last! The little one is the male Zuni, getting it on with one of my big females. I think in the wild the males would be able to drive the lesser one off, but in a cage there is no place to go, hence too much stress.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

And I thought I had it bad having to collect firewood all summer for the winter! I can take almost any sort of climate except humidity. Suffered through the Dog Days of Michigan every summer for a decade years ago, then wised up and moved back to California...
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

1: There is not nearly the difference in opinion here that you portray. I agree with 99% about behavior and observations. The only point of contention is that I believe there is an acceptable level of existence below 100% optimization. In fact I believe that what YOU are doing is very likely below 100% optimization.

2: Nobody is lying here because A: I've clearly stated that I'm seeking a middle ground and B: you've not given specifics for anyone to emulate.

Lastly I'm not playing this guessing game. I really don't care what you do outside of the information you freely share. I'm not blaming you for any failures. As I've told you before I appreciate you bringing to light that perhaps we can give out animals a better life and because of some of your posts I've arrived as some insights quicker than I might otherwise have but this constant bashing of others is not constructive and it detracts for the legacy you rightly deserve.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

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