Reptile & Amphibian Forums

When I lower the temps for brumation they seem to hunker down together, but alot of the mexicana and montane kings will move about even in 40F temperature......Makes me wonder if I should warm them up and feed them or provide an isolated hot spot like others do to getula during "brumation."

Given my experience over the last three years I would suggest that if you kept a hot spot and fed them through the winter fertility would suffer. I do not fault communal housing as the cause of my results. I believe the prime cause to be the lack of an adequate cycling period. Given heat AND food the animals just didn't sync up.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

>>When I lower the temps for brumation they seem to hunker down together, but alot of the mexicana and montane kings will move about even in 40F temperature......Makes me wonder if I should warm them up and feed them or provide an isolated hot spot like others do to getula during "brumation."
>>
>>Given my experience over the last three years I would suggest that if you kept a hot spot and fed them through the winter fertility would suffer. I do not fault communal housing as the cause of my results. I believe the prime cause to be the lack of an adequate cycling period. Given heat AND food the animals just didn't sync up.

I have followed that belief as well.....

The only thing I attempted to change this year was to keep their temps in the low to mid 70s during breeding season. I have yet to turn on their heat and they have been devouring food.
Last year I had fertility problems with some animals. We'll see if the lower temps from out of brumation to completion of breeding helps with this. Things are certainly happening slower than what I've experienced in the past.
I don't believe I will offer a hotspot and feed throughout brumation any time soon.

More changes will be depending on the results of my temperature adjustments this year.
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Lower ambient temps and thus a wider thermal gradient definitely helped with feeding of some forms though the thayeri were not among them. They have always been pretty much bullet proof.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

This problem is simple, it appears you have too much heat, colubrids only need a very small spot to warm up. With small cages, larger warm areas heat up to much of the cage.

I am not sure what your doing but if you keep your room the same and add a hot spot, just to get the same lower temps, you will be required to lower the room temps.

As I have mentioned many times, these animals are cool based, and move to heat as needed. Some species use more heat then others, but if you allow choices, they will pick what they want. Cheers

colubrids only need a very small spot to warm up. With small cages, larger warm areas heat up to much of the cage

This was a HUGE point for me. Smaller and hotter hot spot equals wider thermal gradient equals more optimal feeding response and growth.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Well I thought of course you knew that. Just goes to shows we sometimes read over things no matter how many times it was posted.

If a unit wamrs up and the snakes cannot escape the heat. Then of course you are doing something wrong. That is why i said it is hard to pinpoint something that is posted unless one goes over and SEES what is actually going on.

It would surmize to me that these things are common sense. I think that some people are so used to follwing recipes they actually think they can do that without understanding (or listening is another word) the snakes.

That is why I thik the whole bonding thing has to be kept at the top until people actually try it and then they can commennt on it intelligently.
-----
Why I say, you attack is, you do not consider anything said, and use random questions that do not relate to the subject or the train of thought that will allow you to learn about the subject. You jump back and forth in some random line of questioning base on what you do not understand.

FR

"If a unit wamrs up and the snakes cannot escape the heat. Then of course you are doing something wrong. "

Rainer this was not the case with my thayeri. I would tend to think that in the presents of ovulating (or about to ovulate) females the males "interest" would switch from eating to breeding but that's not what happened three years running. I attribute the increase in fertility I did see this year to the brief cycling period I gave them. I think the results would have been better except that this past winter was very mild.

From my read of John's post, I believe he's providing that cold period where food is neither taken nor offered.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

So you are saying that you had a small hot spot (80) on one end and the cage was cold enough and yet and you think it is the hotspot that caused this?

Sorry but that doesn't make sense to me.
-----
Why I say, you attack is, you do not consider anything said, and use random questions that do not relate to the subject or the train of thought that will allow you to learn about the subject. You jump back and forth in some random line of questioning base on what you do not understand.

FR

Sorry Tony. I thought you were Jlassiter. I read the tille and thought i was replying to him.
-----
Why I say, you attack is, you do not consider anything said, and use random questions that do not relate to the subject or the train of thought that will allow you to learn about the subject. You jump back and forth in some random line of questioning base on what you do not understand.

FR

...but I haven't exactly followed this closely. I am wondering what, if anything you might, do regarding photoperiods?
:Mark
-----
Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Mark photo periods are natural of what comes into the window.

We've discussed that photo period might have an impact on behavior as well and I think it would be pretty easy to test.

The working hypothesis goes that feeding response is a function what I call total heat or heat X photo period. As an example of how this might work lets say you have a hot spot at 80. If the photo period drops below 8 hours the snake's instinct says not enough total heat to properly digest and curbs intake. We've all seen how many snakes quite often will start to shut down at the end of summer but will take smaller items.

Conversely if the hot spot is at 95 the photo period can drop below 6 hours and the snake still feeds because it senses that there is enough total heat to support proper digestion. When I increased the thermal gradient on my coastal plains milks they kept right on feeding when they had shut down as early as late August in prior years.

The upshot is that given the higher hot spot they kept eating through the winter and though the females were in condition to ovulate the males wheren't in sync with them. The interesting part is that my getula don't seem to have an issue, the coastals are adapting to the protocol but the thayeri have been a bust even with a modest forced cooling period.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

"The only thing I attempted to change this year was to keep their temps in the low to mid 70s during breeding season. I have yet to turn on their heat and they have been devouring food."

John, as you know I did the exact same thing, except I offered the females a spot of 82-86 during this period. Here's why and maybe someone can interject if the feel differently. I believe that the females need a warmer area or "Hot Spot" once copulation has taken place for good egg development and fertilization. If the female hasn't quite ovulated and she was receptive to the male (Remember forced breeding) she will seek warmer temps to move the eggs into the correct position to be fertilized.

I feel that a male may not always be there at the correct moment in the wild. So the females can control ovulation once she has copulated. I have had great results this year minus a few hiccups, but soon realized that the infertile clutches that I had were where the females only had access to a hot spot of 80. (Also, my gentilis pair was together and the male and female both had access to 86)(Plus my aberrant knob that just seems to want to shoot blanks)

I have noticed especially in L.ruthveni that as soon as I see copulation. The female will be to the back of the cage where the temps are warmest.....Just my experience and thoughts on this issue.....Cheers!
-----

I feel that a male may not always be there at the correct moment in the wild. So the females can control ovulation once she has copulated. I have had great results this year minus a few hiccups, but soon realized that the infertile clutches that I had were where the females only had access to a hot spot of 80. (Also, my gentilis pair was together and the male and female both had access to 86)(Plus my aberrant knob that just seems to want to shoot blanks)

Interesting take. The general consensus, which I'm not married to, is that males are more fertile if allowed to cool which was basically modeled after broad observations of what is largely perceived to be seasonal breeding in wild snakes (at least NA colubrids). Frank's take is that if you allow access to cool the males will opt to use it without some outside cycling factor and be ready to breed if all other conditions right. My problem is getting the other conditions right so that this happens without outside influence on my part (short of putting them in a cage). I'm thinking that a single male environment is certainly a factor in male behavior but my enclosures just aren't big enough to accommodate more than a pair or trio so I'm opting for some form of cycling to get them in sync.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

The general consensus, which I'm not married to, is that males are more fertile if allowed to cool which was basically modeled after broad observations of what is largely perceived to be seasonal breeding in wild snakes (at least NA colubrids).
I agree with this. I also believe each species requires a different temp during brumation to maximize the males ability to produce vial sperm. I know SA milks(eg. Hondurans, Pueblans) can produce vial sperm on mostly light cycle to induce breeding behavior. On the other hand I also put L.knoblochi through the same conditions as the previous and only had 20% fertility last year. This past winter I put both through a cookie cutter brumation ( 50F for 4 months, total darkness) and the SA milks did fine(same as last year) and my knoblochi had a 85% fertility rate.

Don't get me wrong I am almost positive there is a window for maximum fertility of the eggs. Do I know what it is, nope? Could it be 10 days prior to actually ovulation all the way to pre-lay shed, total possibility. I have confirmed this year that there is not always a pre-ovulation shed prior to ovulation. I started pairing everything up the day I started feeding this year and I witness copulation in L.ruthveni and L.knoblochi 5 days after first meal. Doesn't mean that, that is when ovulation occurred because they both laid eggs 8-10 weeks after first copulation. The L.knoblochi had their first shed of the year as their pre-lay shed.

I am a true believer that each species or even sub-species are wired differently for their surrounding ecosystem. I have one L.ruthveni that always cycles early and one that doesn't cycle til May. I also have noticed this in L.knoblochi this year. Does it have to do with calorie intake,light cycle, or is that the way the are wired. Males could be wired the same way, some may produce vial sperm early some later.

-----

Interesting thoughts and a great reason for cohabitation.....IMHO.......lol
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...