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Really happy with this clutch! Bred my male patternless hypo het WS axanthic poss het albino to a female double het snow. Turns out the female was het for hypo and my male proved het for albino!

Ended up with (haven't sexed them yet)
1 sunglow
1 albino
1 ghost
1 whiteside
5 hypos
7 multi hets with two looking like yellows

They look great! Great pics too !!!
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Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

holy crap i can't count!!

1 sunglow
1 albino
1 ghost
1 whiteside
5 hypos
10 multi hets with two looking like yellows

wow, congrats lucas, that's quite a brood! i hope you have a lot of fuzzies available. haha...btw, in terms of [visually] sexing, that huge orange looking baby in the 1rst pic is obviously a female which is pretty much the norm. she will out-grow her siblings 2 to 1 over time, if fed as she'll demand & become a really big girl!! anyway, nothing has happened here so far w/ my bulls but i have crumbley x stillwater eggs about to hatch any day now & a gorgeous yellow oklahoma female about to lay. i guess better late than never huh? pics later & best of luck!

Holy Snakes, Batman! 16 babies! All look splendid, too.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

acutally 19! i can't count for some reason! lol!

Congrats on a great clutch!

I don't want to be a buzzkill, but I honestly don't see any hypos in there. Yes, there are some lighter colored babies, but nothing that looks hypo. They are what I would consider naturally light. That one whiteside is a nice light one, but I don't think it's a ghost.

Any way you slice it, NICE GROUP!

the bottom pic is just of multi hets. there aren't any in that photo. here are the hypos.

the one albino is for sure a sunglow. the saddles are lined with purple in the neck area just like my adult female sunglow. the ghost matches alot of peoples pictures of hatchling ghosts. we'll see once they shed.

That clears it up! Again, congrats on a nice clutch!

you just scared the crap out of me!!

Sorry.

To be honest, there are so many subtle variants in the natural coloration, that I'm still not sure if the three in the picture are actually genetic hypos. They don't look like a Trumbower, Iowa, or Stillwater. I've been absent from the hobby for a year now (still keeping, just didn't breed last year), so I don't know if a new hypo has shown up. I know that I've produced hundreds of whitesides over the past ten years and have produced many light colored ones like the one in your pick. I've produced ghosts before as well (should be getting some this year). When I get off work, I'll post a pic of one of my ghost babies from two years ago for you to compare to. I have attached a pic below of a whiteside that at first glance might look like a hypo, but it is actually the product of line breeding red bulls into the whitesides. That's some of what's making me think that your babies aren't genetic hypos, they're simply light colored bulls. I won't doubt you on the sunglow--those are pretty tell-tale signs you've given.

I'm not trying to be a jerk-promise. Just trying to help out. I'd hate for you to sell them as something and then have it come back on you if it turned out for them not to be hypo.

I'd love to hear from some of the other old timers (Ginter, Nelson, Billy, etc.) to get their opinions, too. I'm not above saying I was wrong if in fact I am (and believe it or not I do hope that I am!).

Take care.

I shot Dav Kaufman an email....he said normal whitesides but those are hypos. I conceed on the whitesides.

Fair enough. I've met and spoken to Dav on several occasions and respect his opinion. I'd still like to hear input from others. Did Dav happen to say what line he thought they were? I'm not home yet, but I'm anxious to get there. I should have some Trumbower and Stillwaters hatching out over the next couple of days. This is a fun time of year!

BTW, I hope your not offended by my thoughts or questions. That's the last thing I intended. I'm stoked for anyone producing some nice looking pits.

no offended. i understand your intentions.

he did not say anything about which line they are. to be honest, who would know. these animals are so outcrossed that line type may not be decernable.

That's true, but the lines are each fairly different phenotypically so I thought he might have mentioned it. I've got a trumbower poking its head out of the egg tonight. Hopefully tomorrow I can have pics. For now, here's a ghost that I hatched out in 2010. Both hatchlings (whiteside and ghost) show some of the red lineage influence.

Last time I'll post on this thread. Congrats again and I'm glad I didn't ruffle your feathers. Best of luck on the rest of the season!

Hello Guys

I'm tend to agree with Jeremy on this. It looks like to different looking whitesideds, rather then being a Ghost. A light phase and dark phase. I dont see any Hypos either, UNLESS one of those Amels have dark eyes. I could be wrong, I'm out of town and I am using a crappy hotel computer. Its hard to tell in those photos. It you could take some new pics with more natural light or direct light. Hey and I could be wrong, it s hard to really say from where I am at and in those pics.

Never the less, beautiful animals! Quaility looking critters

Thanks for chiming in Jason. I agree, even if they aren't hypos, those are a screaming clean trio of light colored bulls!

Even though I have been into pits for only 14 years, I still consider myself much as someone who is still learning as always, and when it comes to genetics, I can not offer that much of an educated opinion, as I have never bred pits. I can only offer what I have seen and know, as an observer.

My opinion is that:

He has a WS AND a ghost. I have seen baby ghosts that look very similar to his.
He has some nice normal albinos.
He has some awesome normals, and some that are lighter than the others. They may be hypo, they may not be, but, it may be too early to tell. Once they go thru a couple sheds, the hypo issue may be more clear?

Once all of these babies go thru their first shed, it may be easier to tell?

My two cents.
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Genesis 1:1

those that are saying no hypos.....are you seeing the picture later in the thread with 3 snakes in it? the first set of picture DOES NOT contain the hypos. It has pictures of the multi het normals.

Here you go, Lucas. I thought I'd put it here for you so it's easier for them to see.

here is a better tread system. multiple pics of most can be seen here all together:

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/showthread.php?38690-Bull-clutch-suprise-het-pics!!!!&p=750521#post750521

thanks for everyone pitching in. good thing the ghost/not ghost/whiteside is my hold back!

Hey Lucas,
I just want to make sure that you don't think I'm trying to diminish your clutch. While I don't think that those are hypos, I DO think they are three of the most awesome, clean looking normal/hets I've seen in a good long while. They are impressive animals.

i don't think that at all. im just not understanding how animals with zero black on them cannot be considered hypos. they look very very close to my hypo that hatached last year from a het het breeding from stillwater outcrossed parents (Ginter bred the parents).

they also look a lot like several hypos ive seen floating around the net:
(http://t2.ftcdn.net/jpg/00/16/66/81/400_F_16668117_c4IfFNJk4rpTY22dEeuS7fg9PR7dqwGJ.jpg)
(http://i30.tinypic.com/2hf6m36.jpg)

as for the sunglow, its traits match that of my adult female sunglow. not sure about the eye thing jason mentioned. the adult sunglow has normal looking albino eyes as does the hatchling. and if indeed the hatchling is a hypo albino then the probablities are as follows:

HypoAlbino: 9.38%
Albino: 9.38
HypoWS (ghost): 12.51%
AlbinoWS (Snow): 3.13%
Whiteside: 9.38%
Hypo: 28.13%
Normal hets: 28.13%

as for the ghost not being a ghost.....im just not seeing how it differs from the one picture you posted. maybe better pictures will shed more light on it but it has rained every day here in the "sunshine state" since this clutch has hatched. the yellows that line the saddles are more vibrant yellow in person. it is my hold back so im not too worried if it is a ghost or not. either way, it carries the hypo gene which is what im after.

It may very well be that I am wrong, and I hope that I am. I honestly wouldn't have pegged the pic you just posted for a hypo either. Ultimately, you have the adults and are more familiar with what that particular line produces, that and you have the babies there to examine, so you would absolutely be more informed than me.

Take care.

I forgot to say that I'm not disagreeing in regards to the term hypo. By definition, anything with reduced black could be considered a hypo. My assertion was/is that I didn't think they were one of the proven genetic (recessive inheritance) forms out there as opposed to a more polygenic form.

jeremy, im not getting combative. don't take it as such.

Oh not at all. I'm actually enjoying how civil this discussion has been. It's a refreshing change from how it became a few years ago.

We are good for sure.

Have a picture of the Trumbower & the "Iowa" forms as adults? Or are they both just generally intermingled now?

I've got a Trumbower adult at home. I'll have to get a pic of the cranky boy tonight. I think Billy has an Iowa hypo and has posted pics of him here in the past. Hopefully he can post it again. It's saweeeet!

Here's a pic of an Iowa adult that I found on Jason's site.

laid 8 good eggs that just started to dimple.

No doubt a Stillwater Hypo and a fine looking one at that.

I suppose that I can't rule out that yours are from outcrossed Stillwater lines. There is no doubt that they are very light. The things that I don't see are the lightened centers on the saddles and the overall carmely (sorry, I can't think of another word) tones to them, particularly on the eye stripe. It could just very well be the light that they were in when the pic was taken.

Here's a picture from Jason's site that I overlayed atop yours for comparison. (sorry I keep using you Jason. You have too many nice pics). The hypo is the one with its head towards the bottom pointing to the right (the others are a yellow and a red). If you notice, the saddles on the front third have very light centers and there's that "carmely" wash to the whole snake. Unfortunately you can't see the eye stripe very well in this pick, but even the head is washed out. I'm going to assume by the appearance of Jason's animals that the Stillwater line was used, but only he can tell us for sure.

jeremy, read the title to that pic. that is a picture of a red , a red hypo and a yellow.

now go back a page. page 2, third row, 4th and 5th picture. look at the hypos on that page. they do not have the stuff you are talking about. they have brown saddles.

my pics are fresh out of the egg. maybe once they shed, what they are will become more apparent.

and i agree....Jason, stellar pics!

Okay, point taken. Here is a comparison of the pic you pointed out (page 2, third row, 4th over). I still don't see any resemblance at all between the hypo pictured and your babies. The light centers (should have said on previous email that I'm talking about the front third saddles only) are still there, the "carmely" wash is still present, and the head is washed out.

I think when your Stillwaters hatch out, you'll see the difference I'm talking about.

Out of respect, I think I'm going to bow out of this. My intent was not to stir the pot or to be perceived as trying to tarnish in any way what Lucas has achieved.

Best of luck and I do wish you well.

Jeremy

That is actually an OUTCROSSED hypo x Iowa, Meltzer line. I have one as well.

Not true/actual Iowas, but outcrosses.

Freaking awesome as well!!
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Genesis 1:1

Billy,I have a couple of pics saved of yours,and of course I have seen the pic from Jason's site listed as "Iowa hypo" they remind me of the bullsnake version of the "rusty Sonoran" gopher. (in regards to phenotypical appearance .) I'm still interested in trying to understand the visual differences between "Trumbower",and "Iowa" in their appearance as adults...I'd like to add that I didn't want to give the impression that I was trying to "hijack" the thread from Lucas,and Jeremy. I had just hoped to initiate some conversation about the "other"two forms of hypo,(aside from the "Golden"/"Stillwater" form,which seems to be easily recognizable to most folks.) I have been tempted to buy several animals listed as "hypo" ,but once I start inquiring about "what strain of hypo" there seems to be a bit of confusion among some breeders. I thought that since this thread seemed to get some conversational interest in the subject going,we might all benefit from any info that could be provided by the veteran "Sayi enthusiasts" that contribute here...I still want to offer my congratulations to Lucas on a "killer" clutch of gorgeous babies!!!!!! )
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Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

thanks!

I believe that Iowa outcross Hypos are the same as Trumbower Hypos. I only know of 2 strains of Hypo Bulls, Trumbowers and Stillwaters. Outcrossed or not, non locality or not, I thike theree is only 2 strains of Hypo known.

Outcrossing Hypos can change the colors depending. For instance take a Turmbower Hypo and breeding it into a dark Iowa animal and then breeding back together. Thanks Billy for pointing out our animals are outcrossed.

Lucas if your animals are Hypo, they maybe a new strain. Different for the Trumbowers and Stillwaters. Awesome clutch of animals Lucas, very colorful and good looking Pits

Jason

It was really getting me confused & a bit frustrated,trying to figure out what the third strain of hypo was,and / or how it differed from the other. The "golden" hypo seems to be fairly recognizable from the other form,even as a hatchling.mostly I was concerned from a genetic compatibility stand point.

My female was used in this breeding with Lucas' male.

Here are some of my half clutch, post shed. I think the hypos are pretty distinct myself.

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Lloyd Heilbrunn

Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.

Lloyd, those are gorgeous!
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Genesis 1:1

Boy,those look familiar!! Great stuff...

Uncle Lloyd

thanks uncle!

The hypos are nothing like the awesome female that you have but they would certainly fit into the definition of what makes a hypo a hypo regardless of who's name is in front of the word hypo.

Hypo; Single recessive mutation that reduces black pigment and brightens color.

Congrats!
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Jonel M. Lopez

WWW.SPSNAKES.COM

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thanks Jonel!

When Craigs name was brought up I decided to respond, but first let me dsy those are beautiful animals no matter what the heritage.

In Craigs quest what he call a snow bull(albino white sided in my book LOL), he produced clutches of animals that had anthy, normal, white sided, albino and every once in a while a really strange looking yellow faded looking animal he called a hypo. In the truest sense of the word they were aa they lacked black and were much lighter than a normal bull. They were few and far between though, almost as hard to find as any of the other harder morphs to produce as they were a by product of the albino white sided project.

Over the last several years we have been working with a group of those hypos and have referred to them as super hypos. In any case they are different form the "golden hypos" and the other hypoie: lacking black or at least a lack of the normal amount o black and being much lighter than a normal is coloration. Sometimes with a yellow back ground and sometimes with a red back ground. For those of you that work with corns, you know we have found at keast 3 and maybe 4 forms of hypos in varyig degrees in them. I suspect that it is the same with bulls and even local specific animals such as the yellow bulls of South Texas falling into that group of natural hypos.

In addition to the man made forms such as te Turmbower hypos and super hypos we are working with.

My two cents worth anyway. Again Beautiful animals to say the least!! Below are a few pictures showing what I am talking about. I will try to gt adult pictures of the super hypos in the next few days to post also.

Cherryville Farms

Great info,and thanks for the pictures,I look forward to the adult pics of the "Trumbower super hypos" love that little guy in the last pic! (wow!)
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Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

Yes. Thanks for that John! I too look forward to that super hypo pic!