Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Back in 2008, I had 3 of 4 eggs go bad after 2 weeks. I have no idea why, they looked very good in the beginning. Can anyone tell by looking at the eggs what might have happened?

After being laid.

003 by RossAZ480, on Flickr

After 2 weeks.

004 by RossAZ480, on Flickr
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Possibly when you touched the eggs with your fingers you introduced some sort of infectious agent onto them. I always wash my hands with soap and water before touching eggs when I move them from the nest to the incubator.

Other causes: heat spikes, contaminated water used in incubating medium (I always use distilled water only), lack of vitality of breeding stock in general.

I am sure others will have better answers, being more experienced with eggs than I am.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Well, I have a few eggs right now, that look nice and white, and show no signs of anything wrong. However when I candle them they have absolutely no veins! They are infertile, and will probably start to mold or get ugly before the others hatch. That would be my guess, but it's hard to tell. Ross do you remember if you could see any veins at ll in them?
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Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

I disagree that it is a result of handling the eggs with your hands. It is either a good egg or it is a bad egg.

We never experience 100% success rate in captive breeding.....and you know what..... neither does nature.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

they were simply UNfertilized handling had nothing to do w/it.

,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

That is just how the cookie crumbles.

Solution:

.......Is to have more snakes . More pairs and more females. That way u don't notice the loss as much.

JELLY female:

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pyromaniac made a good point about washing your hands before handling.

i see you also used a mixed medium of vermiculite and peat, both are good for holding moisture. trouble is moisture contributes to fungal growth. also when packed in media, air and water compete for the same space, just like they would in soil. too much of one and not enough of the other can lead to the death of the embryo by suffocation/fungus (too much water) or dessication (too dry, not enough water.)

FR has an excellent term for what it is that eggs need to incubate- dry moisture. basically having a humid environment without having standing water or a saturated medium in contact with the egg. One way i tried to accomplish this was to use straight peat fiber, like you have. I would saturate it, then squeeze every drop of water out of it that i could. I would then pack the eggs with this material and place them into an incubating container either with or without ventilation holes, and with a lid. no standing water, plenty of space for gases to circulate.regulate the temps and pop the lid occasionally, maybe more frequently toward the end of incubation so more oxygen can get in.

the next step which i never got to, which the gtp guys and maybe other python breeders do, is to use media free incubation. maybe not justifiable to use on low end species but it really defines what is actually needed to incubate eggs. it got me thinking as to why gtp's and retics, etc coil around their eggs, since they don't dig nests... sure maybe they alter the temps some, but they can certainly control gas and water exchange with their coils. MERELY a hypothesis.

fire away!

peace
daveb
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alcohol, tobacco and firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency

I have on a few occasions found nests of Pantherophis eggs in the narrow
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www.brooksi.com

I have on a few occasions found nests of Pantherophis eggs in the narrow less than 1" gaps under bridges crossing canals and creeks. Though the substrate (concrete) is dry, the micro habitat is very humid. Water evaporates off the creek and to some extent gets trapped under the bridge.

Here's a clutch of hatched fox snake eggs that has fallen from a gap under a bridge:

I incubate some of my colubrid eggs suspended off the substrate using a plastic grate. I don't know how much it helps, but I haven't had any problems with this method.
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www.brooksi.com

that is an awesome picture

thanks for the input

daveb
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alcohol, tobacco and firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency

Ross,

When I hatched out Cal kings, I was fortunate to have a very good success ratio, but, there was a few eggs in a few instances that were just like yours. They looked perfect in the beginning, and over time, did exactly what yours pictured did. However, when I cut them open, there was nothing inside, and all along, they were just simply bad eggs from the start. Did you cut those open?

I never believed in a good snake egg going bad, for the most part. Always possible it can happen, but good eggs can also appear to be shoddy and end up hatching healthy babies. Buddy of mine had a little saying: " A good egg is a good egg is a good egg. " There were also a few times where some eggs looked bad, even kinda smelled, and I had kings hatch from them as well. My example though was not the worst. Same friend of mine would hatch kings, splendidas when I saw it, from eggs completely covered in mold, looking literally like eggs erupting from underneath green golf turf! It was a trip.

So, IMO Ross, the master of Cal King herping, they simply were just bad eggs from the start.

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Genesis 1:1

Thanks everyone for your help! Its possible I did keep them a little too moist. It wasn't until 2010, when I started trying to keep the Sphagnum moss as dry as possible, but still with condensation building up around the inside of the container. Its also possible I contaminated them by not washing my hands.

Billy, you are too kind, but I'm not the king of Cal king herping yet. lol When I cut them open they had some kind of milky liquid inside of them.
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Another thought; if the condensation overhead caused water to drip on the eggs that could damage them. But at two weeks there should have been more inside the eggs than just a milky substance, if they had ever been alive in the first place.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Yeah, good "looking" infertile eggs will definitely always have that non-viable liquid inside, but you won't see a single red vein or beginnings of an embryo in there whatsoever.

It happens, and is simply part of the game my friend. Even later on when everything seems fabulous there can sometimes be problems with embryos aside from being too damp or too dry which can kill them. There is also stages of their development where there can be lethal mutations that just aren't meant to be and will kill the developing embryo when all seemed great before.

Don't ever let anyone here tell you that everything that happens is ALWAYS the owners "fault" because of poor husbandry or whatever, because that is simply pure BS. With living organisms there can (and are) problems that arise that are totally out of any human's control..

Those eggs were simply not meant to be buddy if there were no veins inside within two weeks time,...it's just as simple as that.

Don't get me wrong though, many people DO drown their embryos with too much moisture, and the egg swells up and the embryo dies inside. Also, peat and sphagnum moss are both highly acidic and are very resistant to fungus and mold growth. Soil, and many other mediums can actually promote this growth and can even have the mold spores inside waiting for the right conditions to thrive (i.e. warmth and moisture). Allowing a bit of air to circulate even underneath the eggs is preferable, that is why some suspension methods and course vermiculite or perlite are good for this because they don't pack solid and prevent air to get in and not allow more favorable conditions for fungus and mold growth.

Anyway, I'm sure you already know a bunch of that, but it's worth saying for anyone reading the post anyway...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

**Don't ever let anyone here tell you that everything that happens is ALWAYS the owners "fault" because of poor husbandry or whatever, because that is simply pure BS. With living organisms there can (and are) problems that arise that are totally out of any human's control**

So true!

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

So true Kerby, to you saying so true, to what Doug was saying that was so true.

True, eh?

HA!
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Genesis 1:1

**Don't ever let anyone here tell you that everything that happens is ALWAYS the owners "fault" because of poor husbandry or whatever, because that is simply pure BS. With living organisms there can (and are) problems that arise that are totally out of any human's control**

if you have a captive snake in your care and ANYTHING goes wrong it is YOUR fault . PERIOD .
i see denial is not only a river in africa.
sad.

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thanks Pyromaniac and Doug for that. Looks like they were bad from the beginning.
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they were not fertilized, in other words your male was shooting blanks

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com