Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The last thing I want to ddo is self diagnose however I've had some issues...
After 3 regurgitations from snake a and one regurgitation from snake b I decidedto take some natural action. I introduced a new hot spot to snake a... won't go near it. I gave both snakes a and b an increased temp treatment to 90 degrees day temps and 85 degree night temps. After a 14 day wait I offered snake a a pinkie mouse. Normal meal is 2 rat pups. 4 days later I found a yellow diareaha like stool in his hide. He then accepted two pinkie mice with a rapid feeding response. Improved reaction there.
Snake b just let out a yellow stool with a little green and brown normal looking stool now 15 days from the last regurgitation. Still not offered a meal yet.
These snakes came from the same private collector a pair from two different well know breeders. He stated that he has treated this problem in the past with the above listed drug... now in my possesion.

My actions...
Both snakes will be in quarentine as of today. I ordered some mail in fecal exams to help identify any parasites.

My questions...
Anyone experienced these combined sympttoms? Will treatment with this drug have any negative effects if dosed even correctly? Could the symptoms dissapear without treatment? I know that some people give doses of similar drugs to all new snakes if anyone does this and has some comments they would be greatly appreciated. Snakes are sub adult.

flagyl, and Panicur are very forgiving. If your even close with the dose, it should be of no harm. You are correct, those are often used in a shot gun approach usually with good results.
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Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

Sounds like your on the right track, what kinda snakes are they? Doug M can help you out with doses if you want to go that route. I have had great luck with the very few that I have had regurge with NutriBACdf. It replaces their natural enzymes and good bacteria after a regurgitation. I always offer smaller meals as your doing now, dusted with the NutriBACdf......Just my opinion your cooler temp should be lower, maybe 78-80. Once the snakes start eating you should see more usage of the 90F temp. As the higher temps help with digestion.
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They are back in that temp range now... that was a three day deal. I have suspected stress from the beginning. New snakes new cage build. They did fine in quarentine... now they stay in their hid boxes all day. they are pits... I know the people who post here not so much over there.

Thanks James

Flagyl (metronidazole) is an anti-bacterial/anti-protozoal agent commonly used to treat Giardia in dogs and cats Plums Veterinary Handbook gives the following dosage for REPTILES:For anaerobic infections in most species:150 mg/kg PO once, repeat in one week. For amoeba and flagellates in most species: 100-275 mg/kg PO once, repeat in 1-2 weeks. In Drymarchon ssp., Lampropeltis pyromelana, and Lampropeltis Zonata: 40 mg/kg PO once, repeat in 2 weeks. (Of coaurse no drug should be given without the supervision of a Veterinarian.)

Falgyl is actually very forgiving. They sell them in mexico to toursits who drink the water. that is where i get mine from..the liquid flagyl. Which I think is much easir to use in proper doses than having to crush a pill and measure.

Either way. I think it is better to give more than to little of flagyl. I think evryone who has snakes should keep a bottle in their refrigerator.
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Ok... fly solo with it or. use in combination with something else?

No you should do both just in case. Panicur and flagyll. Just be careful with the panicur for worms. The flagyll is extremly forgiving. Panicur less so. Ivermectim and other stuff can kill your snake if you don't get exact dosage.

See what happens and then take to a vet. In most cases the panicur and flagyll solves the problem.

Also if you have a microscope that is always interesting to veiw your own fecals.
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"Also if you have a microscope that is always interesting to veiw your own fecals."

Your own or your snakes' own? Sorry, couldn't resist.

In the meantime....
Just be very careful these snakes do not infect the rest of your snakes. be very careful where you put the poop. The enclosers and don't touch any other containers or snakes after handling. Best thing put them in another room away from the snakes and wash hands and do not put their waste in the room with other snakes.

ou can get things just from touching the outside of the snakes scales and then transfer them to other snakes without realizing that some things ooze out of the skin of the snake and not just the poop, water dishes ect.

Just be safe than sorry later.
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Here are many things regarding Flagyl and Panacur administration. I posted lots of info here regarding it and just about everything you would ever possibly want to know (and then some). If you read ALL of this, then you will be all set for keeping all of the basics in mind and understanding

Flagyl(Metronidazole) is a pretty "forgiving" antibiotic that is designed for treating the stomach/intestinal tract of humans as well as many other types of animals. Panacur (Fenbendazole) is pretty safe too, but is a bit less forgiving if given too much more than is recommended. Panacur is generally given at the rate of 50-100mg/kg, then repeated in 14 days for up to three times until a negative fecal test is observed.

PANACUR:

Panacur is packaged for use in horses. Herpetologists and reptile enthusiasts have been using this product for years with great success. Vets recommend a dose of 50-100 mg/kg once every two weeks for reptiles until a negative fecal is obtained. Usually takes 2-3 doses.

Side effects from Panacur given at recommended dosages or even slightly higher are fairly low and almost unheard of.

Panacur treats: pinworms, hookworms, hepatic worms, roundworms, strongyles, and pentastmoids.

To calculate dosage: Get weight of reptile (in grams). Multiply weight (in grams) by .0005 (for 50mg/kg dosage) or multiply by .001 (for 100 mg/kg dosage). Or you can use our handy chart below. Just get the weight of your reptile in grams, and use the chart to determine the dosage.

100 mg/km (high) dose
Weight (grams) Dose in cc's/ml's

50 0.05
75 0.08
100 0.1
125 0.13
150 0.15
175 0.18
200 0.2
225 0.23
250 0.25
275 0.28
300 0.3
325 0.33
350 0.35
375 0.38
400 0.4
425 0.43
450 0.45
475 0.48
500 0.5
525 0.53
550 0.55
575 0.58
600 0.6

50 mg/kg (low) dose
Weight (grams) Dose in cc's/ml's
50 0.03
75 0.04
100 0.05
125 0.06
150 0.08
175 0.09
200 0.1
225 0.11
250 0.13
275 0.14
300 0.15
325 0.16
350 0.18
375 0.19
400 0.2
425 0.21
450 0.23
475 0.24
500 0.25
525 0.26
550 0.28
575 0.29
600 0.3

Flagyl (Metronidazole)

Flagyl Dosing:

Yes, when one researches the doses for Flagyl (Metronidazole). you will find doses that vary greatly in books and on the internet, and they also depend on what type of reptiles, the species, and what is found to be the problem through fecal exams, etc...

I have reasearched LOTS of different recommended dosages in the past, and it was pretty confusing, but I found that 25 to 50 mg/per kg is the most consistent and widely accepted safe dose for most colubrid snakes, and it has been said that tricolors, Indigos, and some Crotalids shouldn't be dosed over 40-50 mg/kg.

one source states....

Metronidazole (Flagyl). Used on intestinal flagellates and for amoebiasis at a dose of 100-200 mg/kg PO, repeated in 2 weeks. A dose of 40-50 mg/kg PO should be used in colubrid snakes since there have been some problems with the higher doses in some species. There are reports that Flagyl works as an appetite stimulant in reptiles. This drug is also good for anaerobic bacterial infections. A recent pharmacokinetics report recommends a dose of 20 mg/kg PO Q 48 hours in yellow rat snakes (Kolmstetter et al. 2001).

In the book "Understanding Reptile Parasites" by Dr. Klingenberg recommends this dose and cites Dr. Funk in specifically saying:
"Do not exceed 40mg/kg in tricolor snakes, indigos or Uracpam rattlers."

Markels "Kingsnakes and Milksnakes" book cites a dose of 40 mg/lb., and that would equal to 88mg/kg.

it is very effective on....

Entamoeba invadens
Trichomonas
Balantidium
Rhizopoda
Flagellates
Ciliates

Anyway, my reasoning is, out of all the different dosages I have ever researched, the most common dose I consistently come across seems to be 25-50 mg/kg of body weight for snakes. So given that other doses can be substantially higher, I tend to think the slightly higher-end dose of the most commonly accepted dose of 25 -50 mg/kg for colubrids is probably a very safe effective bet.

I have used this very same dose personally a few times over the years, and it worked like absolute MAGIC!. I have posted this to other people in the past many times too, and I have had people email me back later on saying their once very thin CONSTANTLY regurgitating snake that was literally on deaths front door prior to following my recommendations for the dosing and administration technique to the the very letter was absolutely thriving again after some Flagyl administration. When the person contacted me again out of the blue a couple months later, his earlier almost dead snake was now three times the body weight it was a while ago, and was now chowing down huge rat pups like no tomorrow..LOL!

Also, many years ago, I had a subadult 300 gram anery Hondo that I produced from the egg, all of the sudden started regurging seemingly out of nowhere, even when given VERY small meals. It wasn't even holding these down, so I immediately knew right then that it was time to break-out the "big guns" and administer some Flagyl at the rate of about 50 mg/kg. I did this and waited for about 12 or so days, and it held down every meal ever since and ate like an absolute glutton. The snake is now a huge proven breeder several times over now..

I have used it since then on a couple animals I acquired from other people at the rate of 50 mg/kg, and those snakes did fantastic afterwards for me as well.

Fouled water is a very common culprit of this if they should accidentally ingest some before you notice and change it out. Or if the bowl is not changed frequently enough it can get a slime of bacteria going that could be problematic.

If you get Flagyl in 250 mg. pill form, the dose for a 300 gram snake is 1/16th of the pill, so you have to do your best at judging what 1/16th would be, but I really don't think a bit one way or the other is going to have any adverse affects given the fact that it is pretty reptile tollerant if not gone way overboard on. Using a very accurate scale that measures tiny amounts such as a jeweler’s scale would make it very easy and very accurate.

Compiled info from several good sources

Part of the confusion lies in single dosing vs dosing over 7 - 14 days. A single large dose targeted on a known pathogen will not lead to organ failure and death. Smaller doses over a longer period may do a number on kidneys and/or liver. When we are treating anorectic snakes, we seldom do kidney/liver function tests before treatment and thus will not know if primary kidney/liver disfunction is in fact at the heart of the problem. In human medicine, this would be malpractice.

Still not clear whether DMader is discussing a single treatment or treatment repeated every day over 7 to 14 days. Funk and Klingenberg are very reliable practitioners, Markel is a hobbyist. But, hey! I believe in Magic! Bring it! (Even when the anecdotal information addresses treatment of symptoms and not specific pathogens or pathology. If it works, don't knock it.) - PT

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The only microorganisms flagyl affects in the gut are Protozoa and such anaerobes as the Clostridia. The latter include C. botulinum, tetani, schottmuelleri (gas gangrene), and the increasingly deadly difficile. These do not contribute to the health of the gut. And they can flat kill their hosts. There a few dozen more genera of anaerobes, none of which you can't live without in your gut.

Flagyl belongs to a group of drugs known as imidazoles that as a group are somewhat more deadly to commensals than to their hosts. They are not drugs about which anyone with a high regard for the truth would say, "Well, it can't do any harm." Why they work only on anaerobes is interesting: in a reducing environment inside the organism, metronidazole yields hundreds of daughter products such as sulfanilamides that do a job on on the organism. Another compound in this group. fenbendazole, has been found somewhat more effective against Giardia, even though the labeled use is as an antihelminithic drug (Panacur). - PT

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Here is what DVM Doug Mader says about Flagyl -

Thought of as anti-protozoal agent but is also excellent anti-bacterial agent (anaerobes)
Metabolized by the liver, excreted by kidneys
Compromised liver necessitates lowering dose
Excellent penetration of tissues to target anaerobic bacteria
Best used with an antibiotic such as Amikacin to extend its spectrum
Flagyl [in reptiles] is dosed at 50 mg/kg PO SID for 7 to 14 days; Amikacin at 5. mg/kg loading dose, dropped to 2.5 mg/kg every third day
Refs in reptilian literature suggest dosages up to 275 mg/kg
Higher doses have been reported to cause such problems as star gazing, head tilt, locomotion problems; this has not been reported for 50 mg/kg even over a 14 day period. Problems have been reversible over a period of months
Deaths have occurred in Calif and Ariz Mtn King Snakes and Indigo Snakes at doses above 100/mg/kg, and in Uracoan Rattlesnakes at doses of 40 mg/kg with 14 day dosing. "A lower dosage might be prudent."
To summarize, 50 mg/kg is a safe dosage for your snake. Mader et al. suggest a regime of this dose for 7 days minimum. From my experience with birds I am concerned about such long term use in an already compromised snake. Furthermore, Amikacin belongs to a group of drugs, the aminoglycosides, with known toxic effects on birds and reptiles. I would rather combine it with a safer group of drugs, Lincomycin/Clindomycin. I have forgotten the length of treatment your correspondent suggested, but I suggest we try dosing on alternate days for a week at the scaled dosage of 60 mg Flagyl and 5 mg Lincomycin SID. I can load some syringes for you to give the snake PO. After a week, we can consider extending the treatment for another week, either consecutively or with a two week break. - PT

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Flagyl (el Metronidazolo) BeneBac© . Flagyl is selective in gut sterilization. It controls obligate and facultative anaerobes and protozoans in the gut and deep wounds/surgical fields. It does not control the plethora of gram neg/pos bugs in the gut. Frequent small meals of low residue food are the way to go. That would be rat pups before they become furry and/or grown mice with their bodies degloved. That means, leave the fur on the head and present that to the snake, but pull the fur back via a circumsizing incision just caudal to the head. As the snake's digestion improves you can progress to larger unclipped fare. My colleague, Bob, can identify fecal Coccidia, and might see some other stuff like Balantidia. [Balantidium coli is a parasitic species of ciliate protozoan that causes the disease Balantidiasis.[1][2] It is the only member of the ciliate phylum known to be pathogenic to humans.] This organism is not confined to mammals, but is seen in Chelonians. It is treatable with Flagyl. - PT
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Excellent post Doug. Folks need to copy and paste that one. Very good information and exact dosages given. Can't beat it.

Joe

>>Excellent post Doug. Folks need to copy and paste that one. Very good information and exact dosages given. Can't beat it.
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>>Joe

I agree. That is some great info there.
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I saved it as soon as Doug posted it, lol.
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Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

Thanks Joe,.....

Yeah, that definitely lakes all the guesswork and math out of the equation.

It's definitely everything anyone would ever need to know about it (and then some)..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

thanks for all this great info!

copied to my computer incase i ever need it.

Sure thing!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Doug, the reason I love it is because until now I have weighed 250mg tabs on my gunpowder reloading scale and then had to do some of my wife's asian math to calculate the proper dosage for a given snake weight in grams!!! You saved me some headache!!

Joe

LOL!!,....I know exactly what you mean Joe. I originally had to jerk around and crush the entire 250 mg. pill in a pill crusher (from any drug or Dept.store), cut the entire thing into equal "cocaine lines" to make 16 "lines" after knowing the dose was 1/16th of a 250 mg. pill (15.625 mg's) to have any real idea what a 1/16th portion of a stupid pill really was..LOL!. Guessing by breaking off random unequal chunks and "guess-timating" you could be off by a freakin MILE!..LMAO!!

Now since those columns were listed doses for liquid Panacur, and not Flagyl, I would still have to do a bit of estimating with the 250 mg, pill, but after knowing what a 1/16th line of it looked like from doing it before for a 300 gram snake, you can easily apply the differences to just about any weight snake. The heavier of course, the easier it is to apply it to the big pill too. Like a 500 gram snake would be only 1/5th of the pill and so on.

The paste type Panacur (Fenbendazole) is easy enough because it is made at a strength of 1 gram = 100 mg. of medication. So I just squeeze out a line of it from the tube on a triple-beam scale and estimate it as close as possible. Seems that no matter what there is always some guessing and estimating involved with what I have here. But I make sure I am as close as possible anyway and it has always worked pretty well.

I can just see you sitting at your kitchen table with an abacus and your gun loading scale scratching your head and cursing..LMAO!!..

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Great info...

There are many different forms of panacure that are on the market... what I am not seeing here is a reference to the strength or percentage of the drug fenbenzadole in the panacure that is used.

"There are many different forms of panacure that are on the market... what I am not seeing here is a reference to the strength or percentage of the drug fenbenzadole in the panacure that is used"

Very true, there are indeed many forms of it, as well as strengths. That is why you have to calculate whichever form you are using to what equates to approx. 50mg/kg. for your snake. The percentage is on the bottle, pill, powder or paste container itself or the instructions that come with it.

In my earlier post I also mentioned that in the tube paste form of Panacur(Fendbendazole 10%)) I have here, 100 mg. of medication is in each gram of product. So of course 1/2 gram would be 50 mg. for a 2.2 lb.(1000 gram) snake (one kilo). You would still have to weigh the product to correlate with any given snake's weight.

one kilo (kilogram) = 1,000 grams, or 2.2046 lbs. 2.2 lbs.is plenty close enough.

There is no real way around using some simple math because the forms can all be different. I don't know if the "cc/ml" list they are giving is the very same as the paste or not, if it is, great, if not, it has to be adjusted accordingly.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Those example I just gave for Panacur were for the lower dose of 50 mg/kg. The higher one of 100 mg/kg of course would be double that.

It would be correct for the higher dose of Flagyl which IS a dose of 50 mg/kg of body weight for most colubrids...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com