Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Last year I bred a Fengya Hypo Flame to a Sulfur Lavender and made some screamin double het Hybinos. I worked all year long to get them up to size and one of my four girls dropped a small clutch of 8 eggs.

Here are the ones that have shed out so far...

Sulfur Flame Hybino Male

Sulfur Flame Hypo Male

AND... I recently added this proven male to my BP arsenal, next year is going to be huge for CBI

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Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.
www.captiveborninvestments.net
Jeremy@captiveborninvestments.net
941-323-4850

Jeremy, are you saying that the mother was only 8 or 9 months old when she became gravid????
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yep, 9.5 months young
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Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.
www.captiveborninvestments.net
Jeremy@captiveborninvestments.net
941-323-4850

Wow, that's fast. That first hybino is really cool looking. The BP is even nicer.
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The sulfur stuff seems to feed well and grow fast, as do my Blaze Goini. Thanks for the compliments, I can't wait for him to breed next season!
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Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.
www.captiveborninvestments.net
Jeremy@captiveborninvestments.net
941-323-4850

Doug,

I told you I have been doing this for years. Florida king Females will ovulate and lay eggs at 20 inches. All you have to do is add the male to fertilize them.

Problem is people don't bond their animals so how are they suppoosed to find out? OH!, I knooooow, it is because YOU breed them. i get it!

When you properly bond snakes you learn a lot. Even for old timers like yourself. You should try it!

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Do any of you guys have a picture of a 20" gravid king in hand shot? That would be really interesting to see. I can only imagine in my mind.
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I have a old pic I must have posted here 20x of a female that just layed eggs next to a dollar bill for widgets.
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I don't remember that picture. Try to get a picture of a 20" gravid female next time. I'd like to put a picture like that on my site as an example of how small a FL king can successfully reproduce for the first time. Even though its not a Cal king, I'd still put in on there.
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I think that pic is in the Hubbs book if I am not mistaken. I have two pairs of florida kings and they are BY FAR the fastest growing snakes I have ever owned. (minus a Burmese of course). My hatchlings from this year are three feet long already. JEEEEZ.

Joe

>>I think that pic is in the Hubbs book if I am not mistaken. I have two pairs of florida kings and they are BY FAR the fastest growing snakes I have ever owned. (minus a Burmese of course). My hatchlings from this year are three feet long already. JEEEEZ.
>>
>>
>>Joe

I just found the picture. I was expecting a smaller looking snake.
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Just asking a question. Why would Bonding, make the 20 inch female gravid? Why would it not happen with a pair that was not bonded, at 20 inches? I don't see the connection. Obviously the female didn't even go thru Brumation, correct?
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Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

Just asking a question. Why would Bonding, make the 20 inch female gravid

Because bonded kings live in groups. They breed when they want to. That is how we found out they will produce eggs at 20".

You see, it is the old school thinking that we breed snakes. in other words when we think they are big enough. Some say 3 feet. Some say at least 4 feet. You see thecommon assumtion was that females needed to be a certain size and they are not introduced uintil the breeder thinks they are of sound size. Basically not having a clue when the females ovulate for 2-3-4 years without fertilization without a male.

Bonded group breed when they are ready. Like they would in nature. So it boils down to choices again. We make assumptions and mistake by talking away choices. We LEARN from choices and bonded groups. That was my point! Otherwsie how would we know that 20" females will ovulate and breed without a male in the cage with them already?
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Obviously the female didn't even go thru Brumation, correct?

Brumation? What's brumation? Do you mean forced brumation?

Obviously by giving choices you offeer a cold and hot side year round. In a place like s. Florida you probably need an airconditioned room to breed colubrids anyway. Just make sure the snakes have a temp range and they cycle themslves ....WHILE FEEDING ALL WINTER!.

I THOUGHT ALL YOU GUYS HAD THIS BONDING AND CHOICES THING NAILED DOWN. Obvously we need to keep going over it and over it!

Snake brumate themselves if given proper temp ranges. Heating them at 85F all summer and cooling them for 3 mos in the winter is NOT giving them choices.

Rinse , reapeat , wash ect
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>>I THOUGHT ALL YOU GUYS HAD THIS BONDING AND CHOICES THING NAILED DOWN. Obvously we need to keep going over it and over it!

No I don't have it down, cause I don't do it, lol. I am trying to understand what you do, but it doesn't add up? You said Bonding must occur during Winter cool down, and you never Bond babies. So when did this 20 inch snake get bonded? I'm just trying to sort it out in my head. Jeremy's snake was 9.5 months old, so at what age did it get Bonded? I'm not trying to mess with you, it just doesn't add up to me.
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Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

I introduce them during winter becaue that is when MINE are big enough to eat small mice. Then they breed in the spring. On their own. And they stay together.

Where it gets confusing is because most people are still feeding there snakes pinkies. I start them on one live pink. Second meal is a fuzzy. Size goes up pretty fast from there. So do the growth spurts with each meal. They can eat much bigger mice than poeple think. They eat snakes in the wild. So their systems are made to handle larger meals.

And that has been a topic of discussion here as well. Also where people don;'t beleive it is healthy or they can eat larger meals from the get go.

See if you were a detective. You would see what i am saying all fits. problem is people think about what they do. Because they are limited. They don't beleive or want to beleive what i do. But it all matches up perfectly.

I forget what they call that in detective work. Like one witness sees the man walk up the hill and another saw him coming down. Well that is what give credibilty to stories. They don't always seem to match up.If they did it is probably a lie. But then you think...maybe the man had to go up the hill to come down the hill.

anyway,.. . Florida kings don't need to be fed lots of pinkies. Just continuely larger mice with each meal. The worst that can happen is they can't get it down. Then you learned what is TOO big. But mostly they can get it down and it will surprise you. Then you know they can get always get that size down so bump up the size on the next meal. if you have a good heat gradient and hardy snakes that want to eat. They will be big enough come spring or early summer to breed.

As we know not all indivuals or lines are as hardy as others. But the ones that are . Like my quad hets . They all grew fast because they always ate and wrren't fincky like other lines such as the mosaics ect et al.
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"2. How many eggs could a 20 inch king even make, if even possible? Remember, they have lungs, a stomach, etc,

Billy (DISCERN)

oK so you are saying that from the time it hatches, usually Summer, to winter, your snakes are already eating small/regular mice. Then you cool them and that's when you Bond them?
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Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

I once had two corn snakes around that size that I put in a same container while cleaning cages. They were unrelated, lived separately, and they tried to breed when put together (I say tried because I separated them--no desire for more eggs at the time). I was impressed and amazed, for sure. But seeing that that was their first introduction, they clearly weren't--as you would say-- "bonded". So while a female may ovulate and be receptive at that size (could have been from pheromones in the air?), why would you believe this is due to bonding?

It just means the female was ovulating.

The thing is you discovred it when you put them together during cleaning. Otherwise you would not have known. And that brings us back to the bonded groups.

The problem is pople hink they breed snakes. When in all actuality, it is the snakes that breed. We just allow or don't allow them to for whatever reasons. But it is the reason of it being impossible for a smaller Florida king female to be able to produce or that it is unhealthy why we are having this thread. Obviously some pople who have been breeding for many years and even some 'so called" successful and experinced herpetoculturists don't beleive that. Which goes to show you can teach and old dog new tricks. ..hmm, or was it you can'tteach and old dog new tricks. LOL!

Bottom line is people are pissed and will stand their ground to the death because of pride.

Anyay, back to what i was saying about keeping kings in groups. They will breed if allowed to and we did not find out (or rather "I" that smaller females will produce eggs until bonded groups.

I think the whole "bonded" groups offends a very small handful of people on this forum and so so much so.. that they can't stand it. They even wanted the word "bonding" to be removed by mods like it was a four letter word. just blanked out. Seriously true! Amazing though!

In the beginning they couldn't wrap their mind around choices and feeding as a result from bonding. Now they can't deny it works. But their pride has gotten in the way. So they will keep up the character attacks ect. They are just angry!
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"2. How many eggs could a 20 inch king even make, if even possible? Remember, they have lungs, a stomach, etc,

Billy (DISCERN)

Thanks! Here's a question:

What is/are the signs of successful bonding?

The two kings pictured below lived together for a while (November to July), and they did produce a clutch--though not initially. Were these "bonded" or "cohabitating"?

In others words, is it simply good clutches? Eating communally (see ratsnakes)? And what about those things indicates a bond versus circumstance?

Thanks!

There was just a long thread on this a couple weeks ago wit lots of info. Wish i could dig it up and give you the link.

One way is let them escape out of their cage. Wait a week to find them. If they are together they are bonded.

Of course there is more to it tan that.

I think bonding takes place between young snakes. Not old ones. So you have to raise them up together. But i think that kings that were bonded and are used to groups do better than those kept solitary when introduced to new adults.
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"2. How many eggs could a 20 inch king even make, if even possible? Remember, they have lungs, a stomach, etc,

Billy (DISCERN)

Just saw your website isn't up right now. Was going to suggest you simply put your treatise on bonding on your site and let people read it. That way it won't require every person curious about "bonding" to have to sift through these epic posts (which typically get deleted, so it seems).

I fully agree. I think that would be a great idea as well. It's similar to the long detailed shpeel I have on my site regarding the mixed lineage history of today's "hobby Hondos". I don't bring that issue up on the milksnake forum every time I post either (in fact hardly ever) And that's because it doesn't need to be a constant topic or focal point there.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

The person who needs the most help is the one who keep objecting the most.
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"2. How many eggs could a 20 inch king even make, if even possible? Remember, they have lungs, a stomach, etc,

Billy (DISCERN)

"I think the whole "bonded" groups offends a very small handful of people on this forum and so so much so.. that they can't stand it. They even wanted the word "bonding" to be removed by mods like it was a four letter word. just blanked out. Seriously true! Amazing though!

In the beginning they couldn't wrap their mind around choices and feeding as a result from bonding. Now they can't deny it works. But their pride has gotten in the way. So they will keep up the character attacks ect. They are just angry!"

...........*sigh*, that is your personal spin/version of it.

That isn't how it is at all. Cindy mentioned adding the word "bonding" to the curse word filter because anything pertaining to it always gets WWIII started and you always end up getting every thread regarding it deleted because of your polite personality. And I DEFINITELY agreed with her. I wouldn't mind if I never saw the word again. Your term "bonding" is YOUR term for snakes being kept communally and must tolerate living together. What other choice do they have?. They either have to manage somehow or they don't. There's no "bonding" about it...it's "tolerating" living with other snakes.

What gets people bent "so much so that they can't stand it" as you say, it's because of your extreme arrogance, your never ending "bonding" declarations, your antagonistic/instigative comments while doing it, and your relentless need for the attention that you get from this constant "bonding" drama.

It's just that simple. Call it what it really is instead of the bogus made-up term "bonding". It's nothing more than forced communal housing and feeding. The snakes have no "choice" in the matter when you choose which ones they will have to live communally with. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here?

Also, NOBODY has ever said any such nonsense about the fact that it "cannot" be done. You are always getting very confused about these things. What people are mentioning is the fact that your way isn't necessarily any "better" than anyone elses methods. And it can have it's own set of problems and drawbacks. That can't be realistically denied either.

In other words, can't you ever give it a rest???. This is exactly why you are a self-proclaimed extremist/anarchist.

Why does every single post or topic have to turn into a silly argumentative "BONDING" thread anyway?. That's why I liked Cindy's comment about adding the silly term to the curse word filter in the FIRST place.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

The snakes have no "choice" in the matter when you choose which ones they will have to live communally with. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here?

Bonding is like family. You can't choose them either.
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"2. How many eggs could a 20 inch king even make, if even possible? Remember, they have lungs, a stomach, etc,

Billy (DISCERN)

>>>Bonding is like family. You can't choose them either.

thats a really good comparison

,,,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Very, very well stated!
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Shane@SSuperiorSSerpents.com
http://www.ssuperiorsserpents.com/

" It's just that simple. Call it what it really is instead of the bogus made-up term "bonding". It's nothing more than forced communal housing and feeding. The snakes have no "choice" in the matter when you choose which ones they will have to live communally with. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here? "

Your post is again, dead on right Doug.
Forced communal housing and feeding. That is all it is.
Easy to do things to animals that have no voice.
Great DISCERNing post!
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Genesis 1:1

Doug,

I told you, known tall tale tellers claim to have been doing this for years. Florida king Females will ovulate and lay eggs at 20 inches, in the dreams of those who try to be something they are not, on an internet forum. All you have to do is add the male to fertilize them, like a TFH formula, right?

Problem is people don't have scientific proof in the theories of bonding their animals so how are they suppoosed to find out? OH!, I knooooow, it is because it is common knowledge that breeders will actually breed them. i get it!

When you properly learn about snakes, you learn a lot. Even for old timers like yourself, who do know what they are talking about. You should try it!
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Genesis 1:1

For some reason, that sounded familiar. lol
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Billy

I am sick of your lies. You know i have been saying this for years and you know the pic of the axanthic with the dollar bill next to it for size comparison.

Keep up you lies and you other falshoods.
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HAHAHAHA!!!!.......

Yeah, it has way more to do with keeping it very warm and constantly stuffed with food than it does "bonding" anyway.

I don't believe a 20 inch female will typically have clutches (or good clutches anyway), and even if some CAN once in a great while, I know that isn't the best or healthiest route for the female snake anyway. Now since many floridana hatch out at 12 inches long right off the bat....... when fed constantly almost every day they are only going to grow 8 more inches by their first year????..HAHAHA!!!...ni**a PLEEEAASE!!!!..

I know Jeremy's was WAAAY bigger than 20 inches long regardless. And now Rainer is portraying that it is the "healthiest", newest "cutting-edge" thing to practically breed hatchlings with zero chance of any problems...LMAO!!!

All about getting those new morphs made and getting the money before someone else makes them and does...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Actually you are wrong again. The healthiest babies and zero fertility come for small young female floridana.

I think I posted here a couple months ago i had more small females this year lay than ever before. All perfect clucthes and the females all alread layed their second clucthes.

Boy you can't be more wrong doug. Too bad your anti bonding paranoia you have has to cut down everything assoctyaited from learning from it. It is alo sad that you consider yourself experinced when you only have done things one way. Now your post keep building up on how inexperienced you really are and this unfortunatly refelcts a lot of herpetoculturists who can't see out of the small box they built for themselves.

What is even more ridiculous is that i have been doing it for years and posting it here and you guys keep saying it ain't so. The CBI post here and you are like .."oh , hey!, did that really happen?"

So in a another couple years i guess you will come around and forget all these years previous where you put your foot in your mouth and start preaching what I taught you.

HA HA HA HA!.
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1) How would a small, young several month old have any time to "bond"? Doesn't that go totally against your own advice and practice?

2) Feeding them to get size is all that it takes, it doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with them being in a communal group at all.

3) Also, just because you had a number of small females lay, that sure as heck doesn't mean they naturally lay better, bigger, and/or healthier clutches than larger females do. All that means is that by the time YOURS get larger they are probably more used up and "spent" from triple-clutching them as you say you do as compared to the younger (smaller) virgin "up-coming" females, so it only seems that way to you.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"So in a another couple years i guess you will come around and forget all these years previous where you put your foot in your mouth and start preaching what I taught you

Rainer, put down the medication and read the warning labels on the bottle. You are having a severe delusional episode.

Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

" All about getting those new morphs made and getting the money before someone else makes them and does..."

I could not agree more Doug.

This 20 inch theory/fiasco got me thinking. Since I do love science, and the simple things in life, such as common sense in front of our eyes, I performed an experiment tonight.

Took me bout 10 minutes, but oh well.

Here is a pic of my Jelly male, who is 35-36 inches. Here he is with a dollar bill:

Another:

Dollar bills are 6 1/2 inches by 2 1/2 inches.

Here is a shot of him beside the tape measurer stretched out to show what 20 inches looks like:

So..to propose a thought that a 20 inch colubrid that is normally a large king, such as Floridana, and due to the fact that reporting a king laid eggs(s) at 20 inches, would make wonder a few things:

1. How big were these eggs? Were they for a Barbie-Has-Herps playset? In all funny things aside, how big could even the eggs be? And then, how big would the babies even be?

2. How many eggs could a 20 inch king even make, if even possible? Remember, they have lungs, a stomach, etc, so, in the space remaining for a 20 inch snake to even supposedly have eggs, how many eggs could possibly even be produced? Since the hatchlings of FL kings can vary greatly, and like you said, and I have seen, they can hatch out at 12-13 inches, what would be healthy for them, if at all possible, to produce and have the room for eggs only 7 inches longer? Perplexing, isn't it?

3. Why the rush? I forgot..the answer is clearly for all to see, like you said: " All about getting those new morphs made and getting the money before someone else makes them and does..."

Good post Doug!

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Genesis 1:1

my 20-24" kings have 5-6 good big eggs each time.

Why rush? That is the worong question. Because if a female ovulates she goes through the same process as if she got her eggs fertilized.

Question is WHY should be why wait? Why not let the danm snakes breed. Why are you withholding them? It is not unhealthy. You are just talking out of your arse as usual.

Another question is why do the older larger kigs have the fertility problems which younger ones don't. hmmm. Got an idea?

Why do younger kings have larger healtheir looking eggs overall? healtheri young?

LOL! I think you just want to oppose me for the sake of it.

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" All about getting those new morphs made and getting the money before someone else makes them and does..."

Yep, remember, it's not "all about the snakes",......it's ALL about the snakes...............................EGGS!

That's why Rainer recommends having a BUNCH of females (as Rainer has said many times before) so out of all of them, a couple might manage to make you some new morph money before they expire or have other complications. To some folks, snakes are very expendable, but their multi-morph eggs are much more invaluable............
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Who ever said anything about them being expendable?

Where do you even come up with this stuff?

You really are on a mission.
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"2. How many eggs could a 20 inch king even make, if even possible? Remember, they have lungs, a stomach, etc,

Billy (DISCERN)

Rainer, it's easy to see who always starts the "missions" here. All I ever do is follow up on it from your snide comments. All I asked was if Jeremy's female was only 8 to 9 months old when she became gravid, and that was IT!. And of course you put on your big hairy "gorilla suit" like you always do here in an attempt to "show me" how very little I know (again, like you always feel the need to do).

Didn't you say something recently about getting a few eggs from a 15 inch female a while ago?

Now, doing some simple math, at the rate of VERY HEAVY feedings that you always tout to everyone, this would mean that if the snake was hatched out at say 10 or 12 inches long (typical size), it only grew a mere 3 to 5 inches more in an entire season and was sexually mature after only growing 3 to 5 inches in that first year? Are you following so far?

How can a normal healthy Florida king hatchling only grow 3 to 5 measly inches from the egg and be sexually mature and have good eggs???

Is it just a miracle of some sort, or what?

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I don't know what you are saying or asking? Are you saying it didn't happen? Are you saying 20" females can't lay eggs? i don't think that is what you are asking.

of course the snake fills out in girth. Eggs are longer but fill out and hatch out normal size babies. The smaller babies and eggs I get come from large mature adults . Never the young small floridana. I get better cluthes from them as a whole. i am talking about statistics here and not just a few snakes. not all large adults have small eggs and small babies. just more of them do and none of the smaller youger snakes have small babies.

I think these snakes do this in the wild. if they feed well right beofre spring it causes the females to ovulate at a much smaller size than we estimated. I noticed this even with rosy boas decades ago. that small rosys, even though live bearing and long gestation, can have just 2-3 babies. i am sure they do this in the wild more often than not as well.
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"2. How many eggs could a 20 inch king even make, if even possible? Remember, they have lungs, a stomach, etc,

Billy (DISCERN)

All I asked was if Jeremy's female was only 8 to 9 months old when she became gravid, and that was IT!. And of course you put on your big hairy "gorilla suit" like you always do here in an attempt to "show me" how very little I know (again, like you always feel the need to do).

my reaction is i have told you this many times before and when someone else says it you act like you are surprised.

I think i have been posting a female kings that was a monster at 9 months old since 2003. I would post it again. But i wonder how many times i have already wuith the comment 'this is a 9 month old snake" . I guess you think I must be lying and so when someone else says it you are surprised. I just saying i been telling ya all along.
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"2. How many eggs could a 20 inch king even make, if even possible? Remember, they have lungs, a stomach, etc,

Billy (DISCERN)

Stop assuming what I mean, or what I'm thinking, or what I know Rainer. You're obviously not very good at it from what you keep posting.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Stop assuming what I mean, or what I'm thinking, or what I know Rainer. You're obviously not very good at it from what you keep posting.

This.

That is just it Dmong. I do know what you beleive and know. I also know you snide comments and pushing things under the radar slide from time to time. You are just a constant Juggernaut with a support group which has not even produced but a handful of eggs in their lifetime.
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"2. How many eggs could a 20 inch king even make, if even possible? Remember, they have lungs, a stomach, etc,

Billy (DISCERN)

Bluerosy, I don't think there is anything in this universe that you don't have the answers to (in your own mind).

I would strongly suggest some good counseling, but I'm sure you will no doubt figure that you are far above any of that too.

ar·ro·gant
adj.

1. Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
2. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others.

3. Having or showing an exaggerated opinion of one's own importance, merit, ability, etc.; conceited; overbearingly proud.

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I feel sorry that you need to attack because you were wrong.

Yes i know how i come across to you. But that does not make me wrong about the subject matter..

maybe if you stopped taking potshots in other threads against me I would be polite to you.
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"2. How many eggs could a 20 inch king even make, if even possible? Remember, they have lungs, a stomach, etc,

Billy (DISCERN)

remember you are talking to DMong on a forum.
HERE on the internet he is the keyboard warrior, remember he's the guy who is a total 360degree polar OPPOSITE of what he is like in person.
so one must remember that when TRYING to get a point across. here w/doug its POINTLESS after all he has rep. to consider. however in person he will be as nice as can be and accomadating and in total agreeance with choices etcetc.
really its kinda SAD, so take pity.

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Funny how you read all that from meeting me for about two or three minutes.

I knew you would pop in (troll in) any moment to add some of your great commentary.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

yep i saw enough in those few minutes to see that you are VERY differant here than you are in person doug. as rainer and anyone else who has ever met you and then seen how you are here can attest to.
it really is SAD that you make it so as it doesnt have to be that way its what you choose.
its certainly NOT that way with rainer, or myself, or anyone other than your minion billyboy in all the forum posters ive met over the years. its now to the point when i got to a show someone inevitably says to me , GEEZ how bout that/those guy(s) on the forum!!?! and we laugh... mainly we laugh because we ALL LOVE SNAKES and yet some choose to divide rather than unite see doug it really is ALL ABOUT CHOICES!
CHOOSE TO GIVE A GUY A BREAK AND A LIL RESPECT.
CHOOSE TO DISAGREE WITHOUT BLATANT OUTCAST ATTACK.
CHOOSE TO AGREE WITHOUT FEAR.
CHOOSE THAT YOU NOR ANYONE KNOWS ALL THERE IS.
CHOOSE TO LET OTHERS LEARN.
CHOOSE TO BE THE SAME HERE AS YOU ARE IN PERSON.

OR

CHOOSE TO CONTINUE BEING SOMETHING YOUR NOT, HERE.

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Doug,
I knew you a lot longer than just a couple minuets. i was around you in te evening and then all day during the expo on the weekend.

What Thomas is saying is true.
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"2. How many eggs could a 20 inch king even make, if even possible? Remember, they have lungs, a stomach, etc,

Billy (DISCERN)

What both of you are saying is that I was a respectful person when other people aren't acting the exact opposite. And that would be very true. You and Davis were not like you are here either for that matter.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

You and Davis were not like you are here either for that matter.

Yeah i am more agressive in person. Maybe that is why you other others shrink away.
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"2. How many eggs could a 20 inch king even make, if even possible? Remember, they have lungs, a stomach, etc,

Billy (DISCERN)

Not 100% sure what you are insinuating there, but then again I don't think I care anyway.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That's a good turnaround, but I don't think that's out of the question for a snake that starts off feeding right away. I have a male brooksi that is 3 feet now and only 10 months old. I really haven't pushed him that hard, either.
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www.brooksi.com

I saw your ad with the snow mosaics, they're pretty bad ass looking, for a morph. That mosaic morph really adds a lot to each color morph, anything else lined up with them?
Nice regius you got there, I just saw some new stuff hatch that made me think for two seconds, only two, about getting another ball, then I remembered.

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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Jelly, WS, Hybino, and Peabino multi hets with the mosaic trait are all breeding now.

Swampland Pewter Line - All of the 2012s have the red cheek goin on... weird! From a Jelly male that is the brother of the original Pewter bred to a WS female.

The WS females that are daughters of the original Pewter are missing pigment on their "cheeks" as did the original Pewter (picture by Rainer Weishaupl below)

Original Pewter

2011

2012

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Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.
www.captiveborninvestments.net
Jeremy@captiveborninvestments.net
941-323-4850

Red hot snakes for this 4th of July!
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Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

Those hybinos turned out AMAZING!!!!!
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"2. How many eggs could a 20 inch king even make, if even possible? Remember, they have lungs, a stomach, etc,

Billy (DISCERN)

BIG congrats jeremy!

8eggs from a female under 1 year.... speaks volumes
ya did goooood

,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thanks Thomas, wish her sisters went too!
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Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.
www.captiveborninvestments.net
Jeremy@captiveborninvestments.net
941-323-4850

Why do you think they didn't go, too? Were they raised they same and bonded the same?
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Why do you think they didn't go, too? Were they raised they same and bonded the same?

The same reason 3-4 ft kings don't always cycle in Florida. CBI has his snakes in Florida were snake rooms tend not to get below 75f.

Mine all did. But mine were the same small size and I don't live in Florida were it is hard to get a room cold. My room gets cold during winter and I have the heat tape on. Offering the snakes choices during their maturty into adulthood times their cycling right. It is hard to offer choices in florida where snake rooms don't get down to 40-50F and you can't keep the heat tape on all winter. Usually a forced cooling is required and that can be hit or miss during the snakes development stage of being able to cycle when it needs to. You are then left with guessing when the right time is to do a forced cooling based on the snakes size. Which could be to early for its early stage of developement.

Again, offerring choices is the rule of thumb here. The snakes cycle on their own when given choices. When you take that away you are controlling the time span needed and when the snakes need it. With choices the snake brumates itself by choosing hot and cold. They will automatically develope follicles and sperm when given proper temp range choices..
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"2. How many eggs could a 20 inch king even make, if even possible? Remember, they have lungs, a stomach, etc,

Billy (DISCERN)

I don't understand why you are answering for Jeremy, I didn't attack him, only asked a reasonable question.

Are you saying he doesn't give his snakes choices because he lives in Florida? Why?
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Wait for him to answer then.
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"2. How many eggs could a 20 inch king even make, if even possible? Remember, they have lungs, a stomach, etc,

Billy (DISCERN)

She just did not cycle. You can't expect every female out of a clutch to reach the exact same size and ovulate at the exact same time. Just because a pair is bonded doesn't mean that it is 100% going to breed... especially when they are young.
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Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.
www.captiveborninvestments.net
Jeremy@captiveborninvestments.net
941-323-4850

That Sulfur Flame Hybino is insane. Love it!
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Robyn@ ShipYourReptiles.com TheReptileReport.com

and ProExotics.com

Appreciate the compliment Robyn, hope you are doing well!
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Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.
www.captiveborninvestments.net
Jeremy@captiveborninvestments.net
941-323-4850

Very nice Jeremy!!!!

My Holbrooki would breed at that age....smaller than 20" but they would only lay about 4 eggs max....8 is awesome for a 10 month old snake......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Hi guys...and some really awesome snakes Jeremy - really cool project.

On the topic of small females...here's a quad het female that's only about 26" or so. She's the smallest female to ever lay for me, and although her clutch was not that many, all 6 eggs were very large and perfect in every way.

One more thing, and this goes without saying I suppose, but large eggs equal LARGE healthy babies, that eat sooner and more frequently, which in turn result in growing into much larger adults.

Hope all's well with everyone here!

Micah

Micah good to see your still around. I have to say large eggs, and small females sometimes equalls disaster. Eggbinding, and what happened to me last year when my Pink Pearl female prolapsed while trying to lay her first egg. Luckily I nursed her back, and she laid a good cluth this year.
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Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

Not arguing here at all Jorge.....
But an optimally healthy female does not get egg bound.....
It could have something to do with hydration, vitamins, temps, nesting, etc........

Glad she did good for you this year......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Well, the same female, kept under the same conditions, laid a very healthy clutch. The only difference really is that she is much bigger this year. She may even have had a handicap, seeing that she already had her insides pulled out once. I was afrid it would just repeat. I don't think we know all the factors, but can anyone of us be sure we are giving our snakes, the perfect care? I know you deeply believe giving choices, but I don't think it's the cure all remedy, for everything. Just my opinion. Small females make me nervous.
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Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

I didn't read this entire thread. Does anyone know how big that 9.5 female was? It could have been 36 inches?
-----
Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

I never read a measurement, but you could be correct.....especially since she laid 8 eggs.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Well I always blame myself when something goes wrong since the snakes know what they are doing.....if I provide incorrectly the result is egg binding, prolapsed oviducts, infertile eggs, deformities, etc......
What may seem to be sufficient for some can be inadequate for others......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Are you saying that you have not had any problems since you've incorporated the "Choices" husbandry you employ now? I'm not being combative, I honestly am curious. While others may have said this before, It would hold more credibilaty hearing it from you.
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Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

I do believe the choices method is the way to go but it is very difficult to achieve with a large collection like you and I have....and like i said, when things go wrong it's my fault.....I'm hard on myself and am quick to blame me.......
Ihave not had an egg binding problem in years......but I had one female die shortly after copulation......weird

The main problem I'm having is something Victort (sp?) mentioned in another thread....my problem has been infertility........my males seem to become complacent and reluctant to breed.....when they were kept separate they readily bred when paired up........

I am unbonding my older snakes and will continue to keep my young pairs and trios together.....

I believe the bonding works when they are put together at a young age, but works poorly with older pairings.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Thanks for your honesty. I am trying to sift thru, what sometimes seems like egos, from some others, and trying to better myself, and my techniques, as I go. I may not be so quick to blame myself, when things go wrong, but I do get really bummed, and try hard to figure out if I did something wrong, and what I can improve on. Frank said something that I did really like, and agree with. In nature 90% of hatchlings die in the first few months. So even though there's always room to improve, most of us do pretty good.
-----
Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

" I believe the bonding works when they are put together at a young age, but works poorly with older pairings. "

So, if they are supposedly " bonding " at a young age, and then, it is invevitable that they will get older, as in the older pairings you mention, that means what you are saying is that " bonding " only works for a short period of time, reason being they will age and get older. If that is the case, then why go thru all of the trouble supposedly having them " bond " for a while, at a young age, only to have them not do so good as they get older? Seems like a lot of work to do something that so many have NOT done ( in regards to the theory of " bonding ", and have had superior results.

And John, if your males did better breeding when they were kept separately, your words, then maybe you should consider that they are stressed? Maybe not, but still, if your results were better when they were kept separate, then why waste time supposedly trying to get them to " bond "?

Like you, if something goes wrong with my snakes, the first thing I do is look at myself. However, you can't expect yourself to be the sole source of blame for EVERY possible thing that could go wrong with a snake in your collection. If they are born with something internally wrong, how could that be your fault? Some animals are simply not born to live as long as others. Is that your fault or anyone's fault? No. You could provide them with awesome care, a great home, great conditions, and still, you could lose a snake to something that is beyond your control. Don't beat yourself up over every single possible scenario.
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Genesis 1:1

Nah....I believe that if bonded at a young age and they grow old together they will be fruitful.....and will not seem to be complacent during breeding season.

The ones I put together that were already adults do not seem to do as well as the ones brought up together....

Maybe it's stress.........maybe not........but with those older pairs I am going back to the more traditional way of breeding kings......

These are just my observations after doing this for only five years.....

The main point here is I think I learned something and will continue to even if others said it, I experienced it.....lol

Also....providing choices is still optimal in my opinion...I'm still working on something that'll help us provide those choices in a rack system.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

" Nah....I believe that if bonded at a young age and they grow old together they will be fruitful.....and will not seem to be complacent during breeding season. "

Were you experiencing results that were not fruitful when you kept them separate?

I know many colubrid breeders with hundreds and hundreds of snakes that never keep them together, and have fantastic results, without seeing complacent results. If the evidence is there, from so many over so many years, that did and do not keep their snakes together to propagate the bonding theory, then what is the point of keeping them together to begin with, as the evidence speaks for itself, when they were kept separate? Again, seems like more work and worry.

I am being serious, and not trying to be argumentive.
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Genesis 1:1

I've seen better success with fertility and bonding only with pairs that were put together their first or second winter depending on their size......

But I have not seen this with older snakes that were never housed with their mates.......

I was seeing fertility problems keeping them separate.......the first two years I tried the communal housing technique with young snakes....they produced well for me, then I got a large number of adult snakes and tried the same technique but it did not work like it did with young snakes that were raised together from sub adults to adults.....

This is just my experience....
I've seen where keeping them together helped and where it did not.....
Like I said, I will continue both ways depending on the criteria I mentioned above.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

and I'm ready to test it for you, send some over, bud.
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

How big was the female that laid the eggs? How big was the male that bred her?

If a snake eats the way I want it to eat, I get them to about 40" in about 12 months. I consider this size to be a safe minimum for both sexes. I usually do not push males beyond this size, but will grow females as large as they can get.

That means, however, that if my snakes are born in August 2012, it will be the spring of 2014 when they breed. If I could breed them in the spring of 2013, that would be an amazing quick turnaround. I'll try doing it this year and will see what happens.
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www.brooksi.com

Since you reside in Florida I would suggest this because you can't offer a cold room and heat gradient.

Feed feed feed the 2012 females through the winter and then cool for 2 weeks in March. That means 1 week no food. Then two weeks with a temp of 55f.

Now if the female slows down from feeding anytime during winter. Or is the slightest bit less agressive with feeding. i would cool her then for two weeks. But she should be at least 20" and on adult mice..
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"2. How many eggs could a 20 inch king even make, if even possible? Remember, they have lungs, a stomach, etc,

Billy (DISCERN)

He lives in a colder place than you.
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

I've got a cold room from roughly November to March, so I can provide a cage with a heated gradient if need be.

Do you suggest introducing the males during the 2 week cooldown? Are you using males from the same clutch, or older/larger males?
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www.brooksi.com

Are you using males from the same clutch, or older/larger males?

yOU CAN'T USE OLDER MALES. tHE TRICK IS TO BOND ThEM WHEN THEY ARE YOUNG. sO all mine bonded animals are hatched the same year. Some are siblings . Some not. But the age and size is the same.
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"2. How many eggs could a 20 inch king even make, if even possible? Remember, they have lungs, a stomach, etc,

Billy (DISCERN)