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The subject of bonding

FR Jul 05, 2012 06:00 PM

In responce to a thread from below.

The term is not all that accurate, much like being social when applied to reptiles is not all that accurate. The problem is, there is no other term that applies. So we use them in reptile or snake context.

To bond is to form a relationship with another individual and it does not have to be the opposite gender. These bonds or relationships are formed normally very early in life. In biology its very well known with birds and other animals. Its ofen called imprinting.

With reptiles, we do not know how it works, whether its cued by scent, behavior, etc or has a time limit. You know, if its more difficult as they age, which does seem to be the case.

To imprint or bond in our context is to pick, stay with(attend) coupulate with, repeadedly is a regular fashion, year after year. WHEN GIVEN THE CHOICE. Which means the individuals are free to seek other mates or groups.

We are now seeing this in nature and its being recorded as we speak.

In nature, I have recorded pairs and groups staying "together" for over 30 years. Consider, there are other individuals with them or very nearby. So they have a choice. This is being recorded with a large number of species at this time.

There is one study that is using time lapse cameras, like I use. And has recorded as an example, three different groups of Az. black rattlesnakes that are sharing the same den site. That is, three distint groups that avoid the other two groups and attract and stay with their own group. At one single site.

This is measured by physical contact. TO TOUCH. And over time. They avoid touching some individual, and coil with and touch, other individuals. On a volunteer basis. No walls, no cages and no keepers forcing them to do anything.

The connection between the individuals in these groups must have a name, so simply put, its called bonding. how it occurs is often called "imprinting".

The results are pairs and or groups that stay together for all or part of any year. That is, they attract eachother and repell others of the same species.

This has been and is being recorded in many snake species, including kingsnakes.

While we are still talking about nature, there are also bonds that form with members of other types of reptiles. As an example, we commonly find torts, gilas and diamondbacks sharing the same space. And at several times of the year, not just winter. If investigated, they only share these spaces with KNOWN individuals of other species, not any individual of other species. Therefore, some manner of bond has been created to allow this.

Recently a friend has been showing me wild snakes of different species sharing the same summer sites. Sometimes, 3 or more species at a single site.

In captivity, this bonding or imprinting also occurs. Again, normally but not exclusively with neonates. The resulting "bond" is indeed variable and has a range of behaviors. Some indeed have very strong bonds and others not so much.

For me, it was easy to understand, considering my age and when I first started producing snakes in number. To help you with that, it was long before shoeboxes, so the ability to house all individuals seperately was not available at that time. So we raised them together. A product of convience.

What we observed was individuals within a group attracted other individuals within that group. That is, they touched, coiled together, etc etc. And avoided others in that group. We also noticed the females would CHOOSE to copulate with males they bonded with, very early in their receptive cycle. EXamples are, when paired with a outside male, they tailwagged, which is waving the tail back and forth, pressing the vent down and getting out if they can. But when presented with a known male, one they raised with, they would immediately cloacal gape. Lift tail and open vent.

These were easy behaviors to test and they were very repeatable.

With other types of reptiles, like varanids, we were able to repeatedly bred these bonded animals without problem(many world firsts) and behaviors were not limited to copulation, but included arm wrapping, constant touching, nest guarding, protecting the female, and helping with nesting. And yes, I have photos of all this and more. All with animals were suppose to be solitary and killed other individuals. And are considered cannibalistic.

Varanids were and are great study subjects because they grew quicking and reproducted prolifically, up to 14 clutches a year. So gaining observations was again, easy.

The problem here is, many of you keep them in a way, that bonding cannot occur, then you want to see them bond. Well, thats not going to happen. The key is the window of time these and all animals imprint is very important. And this will be the subject of future field study. Where and how does this occur. Simply put, if you do not allow imprinting, it won't occur

The quick answer is, like with birds, it occurs in the nest. In most cases, reptiles do not leave the nest as soon as they hatch or are born. They stay together and tightly(close proxsimity)

of course, this is well known by many many field herpers, now its time to dig a bit deeper and find out HOW THIS HAPPENS. The why is pretty simple, its a great advantage to known who is going to eat you and who is not.

The next problem here is, many of you folks do not ask, or research or investigate or test, you just talk. You will not change your approach to test. My assumption is, your just not interested. The question is, why do you fight it. How about just ignoring these threads?

They made a saying for this, Only a fool does the same thing over and over and expects different results. So if you want to see different results, then its simple, do something differently.

That some of you want or have requested that the word "bond" be banned from this site, surely shows that you are not interested in the subject of this forum, THE KEEPING AND BREEDING OF KINGSNAKES IN CAPTIVITY. It seems like your only interested if keeping is DONE YOUR WAY. I do question that! Cheers and have a great day.

p.s. the picture is off a wild free ranging longterm pair.

Replies (32)

GerardS Jul 05, 2012 06:18 PM

Good post, I got all the way through that one. The study your friend is doing with the cameras, is it inside the den or outside?
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

FR Jul 06, 2012 11:14 AM

There are many different folks using cameras now. And most dens or congregations are merely a hole or crevice. So the cameras are outside. Also at this time the technololy is not there for taking pictures IN THE DARK. Using a flash in a den would without question effect the animals.

There is a new mexico C.viridis study that the snakes congregate in a mine shaft, but they unfortunately manhandle the snakes and get very little to no usable information. And that study is done by a longtime FRIEND. Cheers

GerardS Jul 06, 2012 04:24 PM

Yeah, I guess if the camera won't fit it would matter anyway. You could get one of those honda 1000 watt generators, which are almost silent and hook up cameras that can see in the dark. They don't cost that much, I have been setting them on my turtle enclosures to watch animals that don't come out when you a there, nesting and to ID females laying. I'm going to try that on some gopher tortoise burrows around here, just for fun.
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

DMong Jul 06, 2012 04:35 PM

" I'm going to try that on some gopher tortoise burrows around here, just for fun"

That would be a great idea. You might even get lucky and see some Indigo or Southern Pine activity while you're at it.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

pyromaniac Jul 05, 2012 06:20 PM

FR, a most interesting post!
Animals of diverse species sharing the same habitat shelter sort of reminds me of a group of humans in a bus stop shelter; in both human and animal cases they are together to further an end. With the humans it is to meet the bus. With the animals it is to share the shelter. That doesnt make them "bonded" but routine close proximity does possibly lead to greater tolerance. This is probably a weak analogy. Also, you pointed out that the wild animals seemed to choose individuals to touch, and not touch others. So more is going on with the animals than just using the only decent shelter around. An experiment would be to put out an assortment of suitable shelters and see if the animals would still choose to hang out together or not, if they had more options.

In captivity I try to put my reptiles in pairs and trios very early in life. They grow up together. I loaned out my adult male pyro to a friend this spring, and when I get him back will have to re-introduce him to his girls during brumation.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

FR Jul 06, 2012 06:53 PM

Its your base concept thats weak, you keep wanting to make exceptions. That, it could be this or that type of thing. Consider, every dang thing you see, could be something else. Well it could be.

The reason was explained in my post. Allowing certain individuals to stay in close proxsimity and not others means there is a choice and means there's a reason why they allow some individuals and not others. Same species or different species.

That BOND, whatever it is, is what allows that individual to be near and on a repeated basis to another individual. The problem is, you insert your often out of context difination of "bond" in an area, you have never defined. You have not defined the connection or the degree of bonding.

So I will put the question to you. What do you call the connection that allows individuals to be allowed into close proxsimity to other individuals, same species or not, all the while NOT allowing other individuals to be in close proxsimity, of those same species????

Then I would ask, what is the connection between individual sparrows in a flock, or fish in a school. Or cows in a herd, When there are lots of schools, flocks, and herds. Why don't they just simply join another grouping? What keeps your wife coming home???????????oh I know that one, money right?

I could ask you questions all day, but I am afraid your answers would be, it could be something else. hahahahahahaha

So why are snakes territorial, when there are always other snakes in that same territory? Why do they have all manner of scent glands and sensing organs? Oh well to many questions Thanks

Nobody Jul 05, 2012 07:49 PM

You state there has been evidence of this so called "bonding" in kingsnakes so let's see some proof please. If it's been going on for 30 years as you say, some actual physical evidence should not be hard to produce to share with everyone here. So let's see it!!

FR Jul 07, 2012 12:03 PM

Good I am glad you do, that is very important. Now get off your bum and find the proof.

That study is on the internet, find it. There are many many folks doing GREAT work in this area, find them.

Go out in the field and find it. That is how you get proof.

All I am doing is making you AWARE that it exsists. Heck you can even duplicate it in captivity, DO IT.

I wish you luck have a great day.

Nobody Jul 07, 2012 12:33 PM

If it's on the internet and you have a link, then why can't you provide it?

So far there is not one single evidence of proof that kingsnakes live in groups, dens, colonies, etc. and that they bond in the wild. We all well know that rattlesnakes can be found denning at the same hibernacula year after year but just because rattlesnakes do it, does not mean every snake species does. You are the one making the claims here so why not back up your claims with some sort of proof? Being old and saying you are more experienced is not proof. You have to provide some factual information that you can actually back up. None of which I have yet to see so far.

FR Jul 07, 2012 02:44 PM

I would love to see your proof of that.

And get off your bum and find it yourself. What are you lazy?

So nobody, if you want to fight, I will report your harassment.

You can and should find your own proof, if you do not want to, You are now aware that it may exsist, its up to you, as to what you do now. I could careless what you believe or think.

Nobody Jul 07, 2012 04:19 PM

I am not the one making the claims FR. You are. I am merely asking for your proof of what YOU are claiming. And I am actually very interested in seeing your proof of kingsnakes bonding as you say they do in captivity AND in the wild. So come on. You've got all these years of experience. I am sure just a little evidence of what you are claiming shouldn't be that hard to muster up. Or do you just keep resorting to dodging it all together which leads me to believe you really have no proof or evidence at all. And you're just making all this nonsense up.

FR Jul 07, 2012 04:50 PM

No NOBODY, all you ever do is make everything a pissing contest.

I have done what I claim, and many of the snakes in the pet trade now are product of that, and it was known back then and well as now.

If you want to take it farther, you do the research. You are not my responsibility. And I could careless what you think.

As I mentioned, its on the internet, go find it.

Nobody Jul 07, 2012 10:21 PM

So it's more than clear that you have absolutely no proof of what you are trying to claim. That's all you had to say FR.

Jlassiter Jul 07, 2012 10:33 PM

>>So it's more than clear that you have absolutely no proof of what you are trying to claim. That's all you had to say FR.

What did you do before the internet Nobody?
Where you even around then...

I guess if it's on the internet it HAS to be true...WTF?

And....why is it the only time you post it is below FR?
Except the time you sucked up to Jeff Barringer......LOL
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Nobody Jul 07, 2012 11:16 PM

Ehh??? I think you are a bit confused. Drinking a bit tonite?

Jlassiter Jul 07, 2012 11:24 PM

>>Ehh??? I think you are a bit confused. Drinking a bit tonite?

Yep...just a bit...But I ran out.....LOL....

The point is this....
Back before the internet there was information shared without links to websites.......It was shared via word of mouth, written papers and even by phone....Imagine that!....lol

Why do you need a "link" to the information?
It is being shared......via Frank....

It is up to the recipient to believe it or not......as always.
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Nobody Jul 08, 2012 09:22 AM

FR is the one whom stated he had evidence of his claims. I only asked to see proof of that evidence. How hard is that?

Years ago, people also used to say we had hoop snakes, snakes that would chase you, cottonmouth would swallow their young to protect them, etc. Just because someone says so does not make it true.

DMong Jul 08, 2012 11:38 AM

........that when farmers saw triangulum in their barns, they WEREN'T actually there to "milk" the cows udders??...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Nobody Jul 08, 2012 12:52 PM

Hey, somebody said so and shared that information so it MUST be true right. I'm sure those farmers had been watching cow udders for years!! And had more experience than most with cow udders. It's not about you. It's about the cow's udders!

DMong Jul 08, 2012 01:33 PM

HAHAHA!!!!....for sure!..

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

FR Jul 09, 2012 08:44 AM

The information is on the internet, just look.

But thats not what your after, your only goal in life is to screw with someone, and on here you can, In person, you would not even look me in the eyes. To bad.

The reality is, I would not help you find that cows teet, if you were a milksnake. Your merely a fly on the wall. And good luck with that. Cheers and have a great day.

lucy47 Jul 05, 2012 09:01 PM

I don't discount the whole bonding thing but what I'm curious about do they do it because they want to or because they have to? One thing that seemed to run in your examples are species that live in more arid climates. How do more tropical climes effect this? When you have snakes that don't den How is bonding then observed? With that said who cares?... In regards to captivity that is. Yes I like to learn about the natural history and behaviors of various animals but it doesn't effect my house. You can't make mother nature in your house. You can make half ass copies but all the nuances of nature can't be reproduced to anything near the real deal. My point is bonding in captivity is about as natural as a red ear slider stalking and eating turtle sticks in a fish tank. This applies to anyway you keep your stuff it's just a crude ripoff. None of us keep snakes because it's good for the snakes we keep them for our own selfish reasons.

joecop Jul 05, 2012 10:17 PM

Lu, I said I was staying out of these "discussions" from now on. However, well said. I am not now, or never did saying that bonding does not happen. I DONT KNOW!! I will keep my snakes the best I can, and they breed and are healthy. (my recent inspection by DNR was given high praise by the way ) Like you stated, no matter what I do I cannot duplicate mother nature. I will say that I have reduced my collection in HALF in recent months in order to give the remaining animals larger cages with better gradients to improve their living conditions. (at least what I THINK will improve their conditions.) FR and Bluerosy I am not here to argue, I am done with that. I will continue to read your posts and if I find information that will better the care of my animals I will certainly use it.. Peace.

Joe

FR Jul 07, 2012 04:47 PM

Hi Joe, I think you have a misconception, its about duplicating nature.

What our task is, is to duplicate what the animals do in nature. Not nature itself in total. Those is are different things.

What I do question is this. Both BR and I and others, have kept kings in pairs and groups for decades and generations, feeding in the same cage etc. Your task is to explain how. In reality, its not our task, as you and others are the ones questioning this.

If you say they cannot or don't do that, then how did that come about?

We have both told you how that type behaior is supported. And that is best done by raising hatchlings together. But like with anything, you must support that. Which means, you should not go weeks or months not feeding particularly when its warm out. With a single animal in a cage, you can go as long as you want, not so with groups.

You must also understand a bit about behavior. That is, not everysnake pics wants to bond with the snake you put in there.

This is why we use the word "choices" that is to offer the animal choices. With many things.

If you look at similar animals, both above and below snakes in the chain of evolution. They do all manner of mate selection rituals. And so do snakes, that is known.

Just the fact that kingsnakes practice ritualized combat tells you they are group animals. If not it would not be ritualize, one would simply kill the other. I am curious as to what you think of that. Why doesn't the dominate male just kill the subordinate. Anyway, keep asking questions. Cheers

FR Jul 07, 2012 12:29 PM

First of all, no one every said, ALL do anything, its very clear, animals, all animals have many stradgies to accomplish the goal of exsistance.

Your answer can be found with birds or other animals as well, why do they do it?? That answer is very simple, it works.

I would think its fairly common sense that having a reliable approach to reproduction if possible would be a good thing. I would think that having to find nesting areas and new mates every year is rather questionable and does not make much sense at all. Particularly when you don't have legs, which means, your not going to go far.

I would also think a varied stradgy of reliable recruitment, same pairs or gourps, PLUS wandering individuals with unreliable recruitment would be a great advantage under conditions that vary.

If I was you, I would think about how animals "know" what they are and what other animals? They do not read books or watch TV. Or have the internet, google is unknown to them.

Simply put, a kingsnake from one area, does not know that a kingsnake is from another area, how would it. You see, they did not name themselves, we did and they don't talk to us. not at all.

This is the effect of the great Human ego. Even the good ones, everything we think is based on US. Even the term cannibilism is silly, what is it. Consuming your own, but if its not your own, its not cannibilism. Early or tribal man did not consider other tribes man. They were the OTHER, and they did not seperate man from animals. So eating other tribes was simply eating other animals. Same for kingsnakes.

Science has failed to investigate how snakes recongize their own? But that is changing..

Sorry for the rant but its to make the point that these animals name eachother based on how they treat eachother. not by what we call them.

Its what I call prejudiced, WE have a mindset that these animals are indeed a product of what we want them to be, but they are not. They are what they are. Our words mean nothing.

Cheers

daveb Jul 06, 2012 10:44 AM

in your observations, do these groups communally nest, either live bearers or egglayers? do egg layers guard their nest in any way? are nests in their normal territory or located somewhere "central" or isolated?

thank you

daveb
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alcohol, tobacco and firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency

markg Jul 06, 2012 12:58 PM

Very informative, I like the examples. Thx.

VICtort Jul 06, 2012 01:45 PM

FR,thank you for your patient explanation of the behaviors you and your co-researchers have made regarding "bonding". When possible, with large cages etc., it certainly makes for interesting captive interactions, and I have seen some skilled breeders allowing "colony" type breeding set ups, with single male and several females, they never miss a receptive female unlike some of us keepers. I am convinced it occurs in the wild, and probably in captivity if one provides an adequate set up to allow the behaviors to express themselves.

Ophiophagous species, like kingsnakes, and even more so, Drymarchon are somewhat of a risk given the results of non-bonded introductions which sometimes lead to agression, extremely so in Drymarchon. Thus it is high risk, and I wouldn't want to lose or create a trauma situation to a valued animal. I am open to trying it, knowing there is some risk...is it primarily done in captivity by just raising two neonates together? Or would I need to raise several together so they could choose associates? Some would say that "absence makes the heart grow fonder...", and thus they separate sexes during the nonbreeding time of year. Many have found that pairs kept together seemed reluctant to breed...and when separated and reintroduced, breeding behavior commenced. Thus different things work, but I am not arguing that what works with captives is the best or natural behavior...

Simply put: to try the pair/group bonding method, do I just raise neonates as a group, observe carefully and they will choose associates? Do they sometimes choose siblings? What must I do to encourage bonding and reduce the risk of agression, which may be savage and quick and serious in Drymarchon. Or are these decidedly powerful and known ophiophagous snakes a poor candidate for it? Others have argued the risk is too great for the benefit, but I know you have long walked the road less traveled and made break throughs because of it.

Gratefully, Vic

Bluerosy Jul 06, 2012 02:17 PM

My gosh, bonding Indigos would be very interesting.

I would try ry raising two siblings together if possible. I am sure after a while and specifically during feeding. Your comfort level and confidence in these snakes may grow as you observe them.

I wish you would report back here as i don't visit the dry forum. Maybe post a link here after your updated post there.

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"2. How many eggs could a 20 inch king even make, if even possible? Remember, they have lungs, a stomach, etc,

Billy (DISCERN)

daveb Jul 09, 2012 02:22 PM

i had a pair of hatchling indies for a very short time, and i started a very basic introduction, where they could come in contact with substrate, sheds, etc from the other snake on a regular basis so they would know they are not "alone" and did brief introductions too.

i quickly learned with the louisiana pines that they had preferential partners. i gave them the right gradients, big enclosures and a lot of food. my females were big big snakes, and getting 6 eggs out of them was not problem. around here it was like rats, they were everywhere. if i had kept it up, they would be $75 and in everyone's collection. it was just that easy. those were good days.

keep up the good work.

daveb
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alcohol, tobacco and firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency

FR Jul 06, 2012 06:36 PM

Hi Vic,

The risk is usually less then the constant re-introduction of animals kept apart.

But like anything, you must have a basic understanding of the process. And the main thing there is not start with old solitary individuals. Then so use animals that are in a chronic state of starvation.

I would also recomend feeding often, you don't have to feed large amounts, just often.

Also, Keep open to the fact that doing what you did before will result in what you saw before.

Giving the animals choices in temps and humidity and choice to feed with they want is key.

It is a system, much like any husbandry system. You really should not mix and match. That is part this and part that.

Indigos, do consume lots of food, so they will keep you busy. I think the biggest problem with indigos and superior success is based on the quanity of food. Those things eat a whole lot. Kinda lizard like.

Keep asking questions before you go overboard. Cheers

jr56 Jul 06, 2012 02:52 PM

Very interesting post Frank. Thanks for the info. As usual, you gave me alot to think about.
Jeff
www.4lakessnakes.com

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