Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Have any of you ever seen one? I have been told on a couple of occasions that people have them , but everytime I see them they are just lav striped or albino striped only.

Your post makes no sense.

Striping in cal kings is not recessive. Cal kings can be banded , striped, blotched, abberrant ect.

So you are asking if there are any lavender albinos or T negative albinos in Cal kings? Yes there are both. They have been around for decades.
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"2. How many eggs could a 20 inch king even make, if even possible? Remember, they have lungs, a stomach, etc,

Billy (DISCERN)

I think he's asking if there is a Lavender X Albino double homozygote with a stripe.

If that's what you are asking, I don't think they would look any different from an albino stripe.
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In the past I have produced numerous clutches from double het parents (albino & lavender) and have produced numerous albinos and lavenders from those clutches......but nothing that appeared to be displaying both albino & lavender at the same time. But just looking at odds (1/16) I am sure that I have produced one but I could not tell the difference.

I have also bred triple hets together (albino, lavender & hypermelanistic) and have produced albinos, lavenders, blizzards and purple passions from that pair. I am sure statistically speaking that one of those babies was displaying albino & lavender at the same time, just can't tell.

And like rainer said striping in cal kings is not recessive.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

Thanks for the info guys! i really appreciate all of the input. I only asked because I have been told someone had them and they really didn't. I rarely post any questions because I am not looking forward to the condescending response that some folks get for asking a stupid question or a question that "doesn't make any sense".. must have made some sense or all of the posts would have been D.B.ish.. the pics were helpful and awesome!!

Don't ya just love that about this forum?. That is why many people that used to frequent here DON'T at all anymore....it's too bad too.

Anyway, don't let a couple of the "pleasant personalities" here ever keep you from asking a simple question or enjoying the forum for whatever you can get out of it...

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks Doug ! I'm full of dumb questions for sure, so I will fire away when one pops up in the old noggin.. hehe

.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Clutch pics from 1.1 double het parents (albino & lavender). Some obvious albions and some obvious lavenders.....

Kerby...

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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

Those look so cool! Yeah, I believe its very possible you produced some and didn't even know it or couldn't tell.
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>>Those look so cool! Yeah, I believe its very possible you produced some and didn't even know it or couldn't tell.
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Yep...I believe amelanism would cancel out the "lavender" gene.....as Lavender is just reduced melanin like hypomelanism or Tpositive........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I think that very well might happen a very good portion of the time, and it would depend on many different things. Depending on the specific mutation(s) and strains, chromatophores can either produce tyrosine that is then converted to tyrosinase without producing ANY melanin whatsoever (true lavender/t-plus). And these same pigment cells can also allow varying amounts of tyrosinase to leach into the melanocyte and synthesize into melanin (also called either lavender, hypo, or t-plus).

In other words, the broad term "hypomelanism" is a general visual "look" they display, but the term "tyrosinase-positive" is a very specific cause of the look. It can be present in pure form only (lavender/light purple-ish enzyme), or it can be allowed to mix to varying degrees within the melanocytes giving very different visual looks depending on these amounts that are allowed to synthesize. And again, there can be many different variables and causes within the cells themselves that prevent the actual melanin production, and/or tyrosinase production. Each variable could also be a totally different gene, or some could be the same gene but also vary a bit for different reasons.

If you think about it, certain strains of "lavender" can be either a vast reduction in the NUMBER of melanocytes that have zero to slight amounts of melanin production, but the cells still produce tyrosinase which would display a lighter look to the eye due to it's sparser-spaced pigment cells in the dermal layer, or they can have the typical, normal number of these pigment cells, only they don't function normally, ALSO giving very different visual looks.

I have also seen some extreme macro photos of some "mega" hypo Hondo's scales compared to several normal and other typical hypos and the sparse-spaced darker blotching of their scales when you back up and see it from a norma distance is extremely interesting too. Look at the difference of how very dark the so-called "t-plus/lavender" Speckled king (L.g.holbrooki) is compared to many other lavender/t-plus snakes in the hobby. It is very similar looking to the t-plus nelsoni, rather than say a light purple-ish colored "hypo" temporalis. Those are likely purer forms of tyrosinase-pos. animals that do produce tyrosinase but no (or very little) actual melanin.

All I really know is that the more I have researched into all these different variables on how pigment cells can function (or misfunction), the more unsure I am of exactly what is really going on inside these things..LOL!. All most any of us can ever do is call things by what we see visually, not by what is really actually going on. So I guess what I am saying is that sometimes it can be totally masked by an amel gene, and sometimes maybe it doesn't, or not fully....*shrug*..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That is all very interesting, Doug.

(1) Do you have any idea why some Cal kings start of looking black, but end up brown as adults?

(2) Is that black color truly black? It doesn't seem like it is because a baby hypo is brown, not grey.
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>>That is all very interesting, Doug.
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>>(1) Do you have any idea why some Cal kings start of looking black, but end up brown as adults?
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>>(2) Is that black color truly black? It doesn't seem like it is because a baby hypo is brown, not grey.
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I always wondered that.....
Is brown a reduction in melanism?
If so, I've seen a ton of hypomelanistic Splendida.......

Then there are many ontogenetic pigment changes....
Like the yellowing of amel tricolors and amel holbrooki.
Also the zonata that hatch out hypoerythristic and loose all of the lavender..
And the red Mex Mex that change to pink then to anery as they age....
Then look at all that pigment change in Floridana and corns......

Lots of stuff we can't really tell what's going on but we name it something so we can all try to be on the same page....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

That is all very interesting, Doug.

(2) Is that black color truly black? It doesn't seem like it is because a baby hypo is brown, not grey.

To be quite honest, no, I don't really have any idea exactly why some seem initially black and then lighten more into a brown coloration. Something changes ontogenetically, but I don't know why or how.

I will say though that the xanthophore layer can have a lot to do with many brown tones as the light passes through and reflects back through this layer. also there are two distinct types of melanin that reptiles produce. This probably has a lot to do with what you are referring to in the Cal. kings.

Melanophores - contain mostly melanosomes and are capable of two forms of pigment production. Eumelanin is brown to black and pheomelanin is orange to rust or rusty brown.

Remember those links I posted a while back that explained many things regarding pigment cells and what they do?. Here is another VERY interesting and detailed link that explains TONS of it too. If people read through most of this and really think about what is being said, they can learn an aweful lot about this stuff even though many things will still never be understood.

pigments in reptiles

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I always thought the black was a really condensed brown that appears black, but as the snake grows, it becomes less condensed and lightens up in the process. But, that doesn't explain the kings that stay almost black as adults. Anyway, good link. I haven't read it all yeat. What I found interesting is the "C" in Leucism, is pronounced like a "K".
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"What I found interesting is the "C" in Leucism, is pronounced like a "K"."

LOL!!,..yeah, isn't that interesting stuff?. I've known about that for a few years now, but it's tough to start pronouncing it properly like that because everyone else in the entire hobby will think YOU are the idiot instead...

It's similar to the English and Australian's pronouncing the word "albino"..(al-bee-no)..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"It's similar to the English and Australian's pronouncing the word "albino"..(al-bee-no)..LOL!"

Wow, I didn't know that either. They need to learn how to speak English the right way. hahahaha
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......yeah, if you ever remember seeing an episode of Steve Erwin (Croc Hunter) taking about albino's, he pronounced it that wat too.."al-bee-no"..LOL!

Yeah, I wish the English would learn proper "English" too..LMAO!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yes, I think we need to update them on some of the new changes we've made for them. I will go over to one of the English forums and educate them on the proper way to pronounce certain words that they may not be aware they are saying wrong. I'm sure they will thank me a bunch for that.
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"I'm sure they will thank me a bunch for that"

Yeah, I'm sure they will love you for it..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com