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my Prairie two cents

jeff_serrao Jul 07, 2012 08:44 PM

Yes, because more breeders had albino prairies already in their collection than normals or WC’s when the Bell’s started to release the hypos, many have albinism in them. I’ve noticed hybinos at shows and on the classifieds mis-marked as albinos from the get go. It’s not always very obvious from the blotch contrast, but the pupil color is noticeably different.

I used to think the striping/partial striping would prove out to be a co-dominant predictable trait, but now after 20+ years of multiple fellow breeders I know attempting to increase the stripes or amount of stripers in a clutch- I don’t think so. Later I though it was just polymorphism (like in screech owls or some moths). Now I’m wondering if calligaster might nest to capture unique temp fluctuations that we breeders don’t duplicate or if a majority of the CB’s available all originated from one batch/locality which carried a stripe gene?? I’ve discussed with many buddies who herp the mid-west, and a few commercial collectors I asked in the nineties, about the rate of occurrence in finding one with any striping on it in the field. They all said it’s infrequent to say the least. Yet common (in the neighborhood of 30%) in captivity, with skipped years, etc. Embryology hiccups yield striping in many animals that are not genetically reproducible.

Would love feedback from some field gurus in their range…..

I haven’t yet, but have been meaning to ask Mark Kenderdine if his Mole localities have thrown him any striping.

When I breed tri-striped Queensland carpets in the nineties, and they never genetically performed in a predictable statistical manner. When I brought up my results and experience it helped start what I call the “ten year Morelia forum war”. I’ve noticed people want absolutes and hate when they can’t clearly define or predict things.

Interesting stuff….

Replies (8)

DMong Jul 08, 2012 12:25 AM

Hi Jeff. Yeah, I certainly agree with a whole lot of what you said there. But how are you sure that you can differentiate hybinos from albinos?. They can be somewhat variable, but how can you notice a definitive reduction (hypomelanism) in something that is also already completely lacking ANY melanin? (amelanism). I do know that when certain individual genes are combined, that they aren't always displayed as we see them individually, or expect. I know you can't tell hybino Hondos from amels, although some claim they can. Those amels can vary quite a bit in color and intensities very normally. I know some people would claim that the creamier light orange ones in a suspected hybino clutch were the hybinos, but I have seen hybinos and normal amels in every color spectrum known to man and there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to telling them apart visually.

Do you think it couldn't just be some slight normal variation in the red/pink eye color intensity?. If you can tell the difference between the two visually, this would be extremely interesting to say the least. I wonder if Mark Bell or Kim Bell have noticed any of that since they have probably seen quite a few 100% KNOWN hybino calligaster over the years too I would think.

It would be very interesting if someone could post some good closeup pics side by side of a couple normal amels and a couple known hybinos together...

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

KcTrader Jul 08, 2012 08:44 AM

Hey Jeff, Just a few questions for you. Do you know how the hypo came about in the Bell's collection? Did it pop up in a already captive line? Was it out of the amel lineage? Het to het breeding? One more what was the year it first came about?

So the striped aberrations in prairies is just a hit or miss type thing. Out of the last 20 years I am sure breeders have done stripe to stripe breedings and the offspring was normal or mixed with partial striped ones? I guess we can throw that striping in the same classification of the Amealco ruthveni striping, after all these years it still isn't a fully known gene. I know in ruthveni you breed visual stripes together and you get stripes,normals,and super stripes but as far as I know no one has been able to get two supers to reproduce. Temp fluctuations can sure modify patterns and color, so it does make sense that it could be that and nothing else.

I guess the project of making striped hypos' may be harder than I thought. It'll sure be fun to try though. Thanks for your insight!
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jeff_serrao Jul 09, 2012 01:08 PM

I don’t disagree with you Doug. They certainly vary in coloration throughout their range and could yield variance in the same clutch, but in these; stomach scales and pupil color makes it stand out to me. The ones I noticed had two distinct “albino” colors not really a pallet of variance. The bells have breeder known/visual hybinos. I’ll try to get a pic next time I visit. I think you’ll see what I’m seeing, but you’re right by the definition of the mutations it is ultimately a judgment.

Side note- to your point- Rich Z showed me years ago how many amel corns were actually exhibiting both hypo and amel and going unnoticed. This was is before the hybino term was coined, and their was five types of hypos in corns. No one labeled them, charged more, or bred for it. I guess their was no interest or monetary reward to with all the constant corn genetic exploration ongoing. He is great at observing pupil ‘tells” in tiny hatchlings.

Kc… I’ll try to find out where Mark got them from. Yeah, breeding striping together helps your odds quite a bit, but has baffled me with the unreliability from the get go.

DMong Jul 09, 2012 01:51 PM

Thanks for the interesting info there, Jeff. That is VERY cool for sure!. I'd love to see some of them up close to take note of the differences. I certainly believe what you are saying about them as I have never picked the two morphs up and studied them together as you have done. I'm sure you have seen more of them than I have. That's cool that you saw some known adults at the Bell's place too.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

DMong Jul 09, 2012 01:55 PM

....yeah, as you said, Rich Z. has an EXTREMELY good eye for picking out small, subtle details in those cornsnakes, just no doubt about that...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

thomas davis Jul 09, 2012 02:58 PM

ive found partial stripers throughout tx.
never a complete stripe though but i did hatch this one a few years back from WC harris cy.tx. parents
sadly i sold the whole group shortly afterwards.
gotta love the calligasters

,,,,,,,thomas davis

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

foxturtle Jul 09, 2012 04:28 PM

I found a wild prairie king in Indiana last year that was more than 50% striped.
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www.brooksi.com

jeff_serrao Jul 12, 2012 11:35 PM

Thomas and Nick - thanks for the info. Interesting

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