Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Guys,

Carl Bartlett just hatched out some milk snakes from Cochise county Arizona near St. Johns and he and I were discussing what ssp we think they are.

We're interested to hear your thoughts. Carl asked me to post this for him.

Here is the Dam and some babies

Dave

DNS Reptiles - Milk Snakes

Hi Dave,......

From the given locale and phenotypes, I would say New Mexico milks (L.t.celaenops). Any L.t.taylori influence would be found further north in the Colorado River drainage area of northern Arizona.

cheers, ~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I don't see much in the way of annulata influence from the south either. What do the bellies look like?. Annulata influence would tend to have the red stopping at the ventral area (the rest black) and of course they usually have complete white rings across the belly that are not interrupted with black pigment.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Hey Doug - thanks for your input. I was thinking celaenops myself but wanted others opinions. I was glad to see you voiced ours since you're always on top of ssp identification!

Dave
DNS Reptiles - Milk Snakes

Looks like NM milks to me.

i'm far from a milk expert though (at least for now haha)

Dave,
They look like celaenops to me. Celaenops like a lot of other NA triangulum are highly variable snakes. Although I question how much the genetic make up of celaenops, gentilis, taylori, and multistrata differ from each other, I think some of those could be combined, Ive seen examples of gentilis that could pass for each one. and absolutely no annulata influence in those "western milks", if that was a question that would be a far leap and Im sure thats not what this is about.

Did you ever count those scales to compare? I think those guys are the same, I think the range just got intergrated over a large part of it and ended up filling a large gap over time, probably where the good looking l.t.t.'s are from are in those areas
Nice celaenops btw

Hey Brandon

I keep collecting the skins but haven't had time to count the scales yet but I will someday soon...I am anxious to see the results.

Dave
DNS Reptiles - Milk Snakes

Hey Jimmy

I tend to agree with you Celaenops although I did see a little taylori in them but Cochise is so far south east in AZ that I really thought celaenops. Carl does have an adult pair and these are captive bred babies from that pairing.

Dave

The popular designation seems to be L.T.celaenops.

Heres a pic of a yearling from last year. Most have more black crossovers.

-Hans
" alt="Image">

The popular designation seems to be L.T.celaenops.

Heres a pic of a yearling from last year. Most have more black crossovers.

-Hans