Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I took a couple of photo's this evening of some kingsnakes in my collection that I thought some of you may like. This is what I consider a classic example of black kingsnake that I field collected here in Kentucky. It has all the characteristics I like best in this subspecies - very black and with a glossy polished luster to the scalation.

A clutch of hatchlings that were sired by this brute with one of his local female friends. After a several year hiatus in keeping these snakes it occured to me that I missed them, and wanted to work with them once again. After much deliberation I selected what I thought to be one of my favorite locales.

Hope you enjoy!

Phil

Those are so cool. The adult is very nice.
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I agree with Ross. Look like very hearty animals.

--Dennis

Thankyou Ross! They certainly are attractive kingsnakes.

Phil

Nice Phil, congrats on a great looking clutch. That "Brute" is the best on I have seen.
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Thanks KC. I agree with you. I believe he is a prime example of his kind.

Phil

Those are awesome-looking Black Kings!

Tim

Thanks Tim. Surprisingly there is a fair amount of variation within this subspecies. Those with these characteristics have always been my favorites.

Phil

Phil,
That male has to be the best looking L. g. nigra I have ever seen.

What does the female look like?

Is there any way to tell which offspring will lose their dorsal & lateral speckling?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

She is identical but smaller than the male as is usually the case with female black kings.

I would expect all the babies to lose the cross bands and become solid black as they mature. All the adults I have seen from this locale had very similar characteristics so I would be really surprised if these developed any differently.

Thanks, Phil

>>She is identical but smaller than the male as is usually the case with female black kings.
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>>I would expect all the babies to lose the cross bands and become solid black as they mature. All the adults I have seen from this locale had very similar characteristics so I would be really surprised if these developed any differently.
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>>Thanks, Phil

Very nice....
I'd love to have some of those one day.......

The two getula subs I've never worked with are L. g. getula and L. g. nigra.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Those are very nice, can I ask which county they are from?

Casey county.

Thanks, Phil

Great looking nigra, Phil!

Yes, those are definitely as NICE as they get in my opinion too! Sweet clutch of youngster's there too bud!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks Doug. I appreciate the nice comments!

Phil

That is one of the best looking Black Kings I have ever seen! Awesome!
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Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

Thanks! They really are some nice looking snakes. I especially like how the scales seem to glisten.

Phil

What an awesome speciman Phil!!! I have really enjoyed your posts on these animals (although few and far between ) Keep up the great field work and I am glad you decided to breed them again. One thing I have always liked about black kingsnakes is that the juvenile pattern does not really matter that much---they all pretty much turn black..

Joe

>>What an awesome speciman Phil!!! I have really enjoyed your posts on these animals (although few and far between ) Keep up the great field work and I am glad you decided to breed them again. One thing I have always liked about black kingsnakes is that the juvenile pattern does not really matter that much---they all pretty much turn black..
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Yea, but some hold onto the pattern more than others......

I believe it to be the amount of Holbrooki influence.....

Or, if you believe Pyron and Burbrink et al 2009, they are all Holbrooki......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John,

Based on my observations I don't believe this is necessarily true. Those that are intergradient with holbrooki (Fulton, Hickman and Carlisle counties for example) are completely different than those that simply retain vestiges of the juvenile pattern. Those that are truly intergradient not only have cross bars, but speckling between the bars as well. Those from farther east, primarily in lowland populations, often have cross bars or a chain pattern, but not speckling. I believe this is simply variation within this subspecies and nothing more. There are populations of nigra that are perhaps 200 miles distant from the accepted intergrade zone that display these characteristics.

Phil

>>John,
>>
>>Based on my observations I don't believe this is necessarily true. Those that are intergradient with holbrooki (Fulton, Hickman and Carlisle counties for example) are completely different than those that simply retain vestiges of the juvenile pattern. Those that are truly intergradient not only have cross bars, but speckling between the bars as well. Those from farther east, primarily in lowland populations, often have cross bars or a chain pattern, but not speckling. I believe this is simply variation within this subspecies and nothing more. There are populations of nigra that are perhaps 200 miles distant from the accepted intergrade zone that display these characteristics.
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>>Phil

Thanks for that information Phil.....I was just busting that paper again and not you.....lol

It seems all getula subspecies (or common kingsnake species per Burbrink) are polymorphic within their range....

What is your thought on sympatric speciation?

I, too live in an intergrade zone between Splendida and Holbrooki.....I do believe in intergradation between subs exists but do not believe the getula in my area are all L. holbrooki like Burbrink suggests......polymorphism is one thing but soon the lab rats will find out that all lampropeltis have a single common ancestral snake....
Maybe there is a reason we have black and white banded kings on each coast and a bunch of speckled to solid black ones in the middle........
If only we could take this technology back in time.....lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

This makes for real good discussion John. The Lampropeltis getula complex is a particularly interesting subject due to its transcontinental distribution and the variety of forms that exist across this range. I'm not certain how I feel as to whether this represents sympatric speciation or not. Most of my kingsnake observations are with L.g.nigra here in KY so I can only speculate on what might be going on in other parts of the kingsnakes range. Here, these snakes are widespread and probably very little genetic separation occurs. There are tendencies for kings from certain habitat types to share distinctive characteristics, but even this is somewhat plastic and nothing is set in stone. I have on rare occasions for example observed heavily banded nigra from upland habitats in east KY. What selective pressures play a role in whether a pop will tend to be patterned or not I can only speculate on.

I also find it interesting how the field guides lay out ranges of subspecies and intergrade zones. I have the impression that many people often accept these range maps without question as if they were gospel. I believe the reality is much different however and not nearly as black and white as many would assume. I certainly appreciate these maps and the field guides themselves and all the research that went into them, but I look at them as only guides and not absolutes truths.

Phil

Phil,
Thanks for that reply.
As I mentioned before, I have never kept nor studied nigra so I appreciate your first hand info.
And I tend to believe in natural polymorphism within a subspecies but I also believe of genetic flow and intergration being relict......causing polymorphism.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Thanks Joe. This is true in general, but some retain varying degree's of pattern (usually rather faint) while a few lose all trace of pattern what so ever. They certainly are interesting snakes!

Phil

That male is awesome, one of the nicest I have seen. You can send some of those this way when ever you like.
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Thanks Gerard!

Phil