Reptile & Amphibian Forums

if not, there is now!
(granted it's still in the egg so it might not be mosaic...)

out of 9 eggs 4 babies are out already and 2 eggs haven't pipped yet, none of the eggs looked bad so hopefully all 9 hatch.

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www.kingpinreptiles.com

Post some pics after they get out!
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Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

Do you mean the lavender Albino Mosaic?

yes they have been around since 2007. I also see them frequently on the classifieds.

But a T negative mosaic. No I have not seen or produced one myself . I know of someone that possibly has .... but it may be a triple homo T neg x Lavender Albino x Mosaic. ..I say "may be", because it it hard to tell when they are just hatched.
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Mosaic is recessive trait in Florida kings. I hate the terms used for traits that are just abberancies in other snakes and are not recessive traits. it really screws up what is what.
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>>Mosaic is recessive trait in Florida kings. I hate the terms used for traits that are just abberancies in other snakes and are not recessive traits. it really screws up what is what.
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The mosaic trait in Cal Kings is truly a CO DOMINANT trait....
not just and aberrancy.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

You are correct. lol The mosaic is basically a selectively bred Newport, but I don't know if that pattern comes out every time. Like will all the offspring expressing the Newport gene all look like mosaics? Or will some look like Newports? I guess we'll have to see what Mike gets.

Mike, I don't recall ever seeing an albino mosaic on the internet, but of course that doesn't mean there aren't any out there.
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Very true, I did a lot of searching around and couldn't find pictures or posts of any. All the normals look like mosaics, with no pattern on their back just black. A couple of them have some spots and stripes instead of just plain black.

And there's 2 albino heads poking out of eggs now.

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www.kingpinreptiles.com

>>...All the normals look like mosaics, with no pattern on their back just black. A couple of them have some spots and stripes instead of just plain black.

Mike, this confused me a little: all were patternless? Or some were just black, and some had spots and stripes?

Like the others, I look forward to pix. You always post cool stuff, but in this instance I felt like your initial post's premise ("there is now..." well, "...it might not be" was a little premature.

The mosaic pattern to my knowledge is when the white bands don't fully connect around the snake, and the snake will have just a plain black back with bands on their sides. A couple of those have some dots, dashes, stripes, etc.

But yeah, I was so pumped about seeing an albino head I immediately figured it would be an albino mosaic just because the other ones were all mosaic haha. Oddly enough the first albino out of the egg is fully banded with maybe 1 or 2 aberrant bands, looks exactly like the male, while all the mosaics look exactly like the female mosaic.

And I started the thread with hopes of finding out if there is any albino mosaics out there, but it doesn't seem like we're getting anywhere with that.
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www.kingpinreptiles.com

Yeah, I've noticed some mosaics have small dots or dashes. I like the ones with a solid black or brown on the back. I think the albinos will have the same mosaic pattern, if all the other ones do.
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I think the albinos will have the same mosaic pattern, if all the other ones do.

That is IF the albino was banded. If it was striped or aberrant, who knows.
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My understanding is the, Mosaic, dot-dash, highway, ect are all derivatives from the newport and abberant phases found in san diego. I never heard of a true codom in Cal kings or any other kingsnakes. Maybe i am wrong here so please correct me.
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>>My understanding is the, Mosaic, dot-dash, highway, ect are all derivatives from the newport and abberant phases found in san diego. I never heard of a true codom in Cal kings or any other kingsnakes. Maybe i am wrong here so please correct me.
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I have two codominant gene kingsnake projects......
The yellow amel holbrooki and the hypoerythristic mexmex.

And I believe the mosaic cali king morph to act as a true codominant trait......
After reading Ross' site again last night, I see that Ross believes other cal king morphs to be codom......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yeah, it sure seems like it from my breedings of locality animals so far. I still want to do some breeding experiments with my grease kings and Newports by breeding them to banded kings found outside the range of those morphs.
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Just making sure you saw this since you stated there are no known codominant genes/traits/morphs...

>>I have two codominant gene kingsnake projects......
>>The yellow amel holbrooki and the hypoerythristic mexmex.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

"My understanding is the, Mosaic, dot-dash, highway, ect are all derivatives from the newport and abberant phases found in san diego."

The mosaic definitely comes from the Newport morph found in Orange Co. and Los Angeles Co. I believe that is a co dominate trait from the results I've had from breeding them.

The dot-dash and highway are aberrant forms of the San Diego striped king found in SD and Riverside Counties. Those seem to work a little different than Newports from what I have heard.

One thing about a lot of Cal king morphs, is they are a mixture of the Newport and the SD striped morph, so who knows what kind of weird things can happen when breeding them. The striped gene is weird, it's like co dominant and recessive at the same time. Only thing is hets are not a for sure thing. Hubbs told me if you breed two bandeds together from an area that has SD striped kings, its possible you will get some striped.
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Yeah but that does not mean they are actualy codom.

The best way to find out is to breed a Mosiac to a cornsnake or a Pueblin milksnake. When get hybrids with half the babies mosaic- then you have a codom.

but all this abberant to abberant breeding in Cal kings does not mean the mosiac is a true codom. Even if you bred a abbrant cal king to a florida king abberancies will run wild. But it does not prove a true codom effect IMO.
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Yeah, make hybrids, that's a good idea. Your killing tonight, buddy!

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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Yeah, make hybrids, that's a good idea. Your killing tonight, buddy!

Gerard,
you just don't know cal kings like i do. I collected and bred them from all over the sate when i lived there. You will find abberant Cal kings from all across the state. From the north to the south. Their could be just something in cal kings which causes abberancies because they are related. I have seen this over and over and have been around since the early days when peope started creating abberant morphs.

So that is why breeding to something like a Pueblin would prove the mosaic to be a codom.

Hybrids like the Cal x corn and Cal x Pueblin have been done to death. They are nothing nw in the hobby.

My experince with crossing Cal kings and working with hybrids is good experience and there is a lot to be learned. This something others like you may not understand or still think it will "hurt the hobby" ..which is a topic done to death. So i would rather NOT rehash and revisit what was said. But i can tell you this. Hybrids like a corn x Cal does nothing to hurt the hobby. How it is hurting it? Who is hurt?. Are you talking about the greed aspect and some kid hatching out a new cal king morph from some wildcaughts and he deserves to get $8000. a peice for them and you care so much for this fictional kid and event that it may or may never occur that "IF" that was to ever occur that kid who did no breeding efforts and never worked for anything in regards to planing and breeding deserves to make six figures from his one breeding? cause that is how a nobody becomes a somebody in this hobby and it really is not deserved or amount to a hill of beans to you.
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What's a pueblin?

When you say you do not want to rehash something, stop talking about it.

I do not have experience with Cal kings which I why I stuck to that part of what you said. Ross has lots of experience with them and says he can figure it out without doing it. It will probably take longer but it can be done. That's why I say hybrids are lazy, people don't want to do the work.
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

You still don't get it.

i give up.
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I collected and bred them from all over the sate when i lived there. You will find abberant Cal kings from all across the state. From the north to the south. Their could be just something in cal kings which causes abberancies because they are related. I have seen this over and over and have been around since the early days when peope started creating abberant morphs.

So that is why breeding to something like a Pueblin would prove the mosaic to be a codom.

No, you will not find them "all across the state". What you are saying means you will find aberrants anywhere in the state, and that's not true. They are restricted to certain ranges (see Hubbs book lol) and in all cases, their patterns are inherited genetically. Some recessive, some co dominate, and then others like the SD striper. Other banded kingsnakes found outside these ranges, do not carry the same genes that cause aberrant patterns. So, breeding an aberrant to one of these kings outside the aberrant range, will also prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, whether the trait is co dominant or not. There is no need to have to hybridize anything to figure this stuff out.
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When lived up in centrl cali I found them. When in Fresno i found them. Not just in s. cal like some people think. Sure there are some areas where they are not. But for the most part they are spread out pretty wide.
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Yeah, the range is even larger in Northern CA. Its HUGE!
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That's interesting stuff, such a complicated species. I'm sure Rainer understands now, he said he was done so he might not say thank you.
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Still trolling..
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So, breeding an aberrant to one of these kings outside the aberrant range, will also prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, whether the trait is co dominant or not.

Sorry i don't agree with that. Cal kings are related and they do have spotty areas where thy are abberant. Something in the cal king genes (which comes from experince in breeding cals not finding them) makes them react in certain ways which makes me beleive breeding any abberant whether codom or not produce more abberants. That is just breeding expereince speaking and not just field collecting. So doing breeding trails to prove them out would not work like other snakes spp.

That is why breeding outside of a cal kings genetics is important.

Besides there is nothing to get your panties in a wad over breeding a cal to a corn or a pueblin. Which you make it sound like that is your issue. What i am saying a full proof way is to NOT breed it to another cal king because experince tells me there is something in the cal king that might not make it full proof they are a codom.
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(which comes from experince in breeding cals not finding them)
And that's exactly why we are looking at it in two different ways. You have not worked exclusively with wild caught kings and I have not worked a lot with hobby Cal kings, but I do understand them. Hobby Cal kings are a huge mix of different genes that cause their breeding results in captivity, to be completely different then what you see in locality breeding. I believe you have much much much more experience in that department than I do.

When I say there is no need to hybridize snakes to find out if a trait is co dom, its just what it means. And believe me, I know it ticks you off when I say it like that hahahahahaha, but I'm just pulling your chain because I know you so well, and its fun, and I know you are not my rival, so I feel comfortable playing with you like that.

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"Yeah but that does not mean they are actualy codom."

If you mean mosaic when you say they, that's what I said. They are not necessarily co dom 100%. And I don't believe you have to create hybrids to know whether a trait is co dominate or not. I'd rather try test breeding to banded kings found outside the range of these morphs.
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"but all this abberant to abberant breeding in Cal kings does not mean the mosiac is a true codom. Even if you bred a abbrant cal king to a florida king abberancies will run wild. But it does not prove a true codom effect IMO."

This is what I wrote and is pretty much what you are saying there, so there should be no disagreement.

One thing about a lot of Cal king morphs, is they are a mixture of the Newport and the SD striped morph, so who knows what kind of weird things can happen when breeding them. The striped gene is weird, it's like co dominant and recessive at the same time. Only thing is hets are not a for sure thing. Hubbs told me if you breed two bandeds together from an area that has SD striped kings, its possible you will get some striped.
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Okay so its not a codom. What i thought.
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>>Okay so its not a codom. What i thought.
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What I said, so nah nah.
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You said to john lassiter:

"You are correct."

That is the post I was referring to. You agreed with him that they are codom. Which they are not.

So nah nah, boo boo!
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But, if you read all my replies, you see that I stated I think Newports are co dominant and the Mosaics, which have Newport in them, may also have a different gene from the SD striper, so who knows what you will get. But, you are right, I should have been more clear when replying to John the first time. I think. I'm not going back to look. This is stupid. hahaha
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You either foeget or don't know my exprince in working with genetics. That is what i do for decades. I have a lot more expereince and a green thunmb for those things. not just in hybrids but with kings or all sorts. Field expreince you have some. So do I. But this is about genetics.
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hahahahaha Yes Sir!
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Just saying that with pattern abberancies it is always harder to determine whether they are just an abberancie or a codom. Between Cal kings pattern abberancies, irregarldless of where they are from, trigger a stronger visual response than with other snakes. I thnk it is just the way Cal kings genetics . That is why hybridzation with a more known pattern type outside of cal kings is better idea. but even with Floridana we have striped phase now and their are the Apalachicolas mixed in and variations including the natrual busy pattern of a normal flordana it would also not prove anything out. That is why a true hybrid breeding (milk or ratsnake) would prove out a true codom trait better.
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Well, like I said in my new post above, hobby Cal kings are a huge mix of different localities and genes. Some may have no certain genes that cause aberrants in them, and some might. Wild Cal kings found well outside the ranges of natural occurring aberrants, are completely different than hobby Cal kings. That's all I'm saying.
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Well, like I said in my new post above, hobby Cal kings are a huge mix of different localities and genes. Some may have no certain genes that cause aberrants in them, and some might. Wild Cal kings found well outside the ranges of natural occurring aberrants, are completely different than hobby Cal kings. That's all I'm saying

And I am saying a simple trait in cal kings is more apt to be passed down and effect a cal king no matter where it is from.

So how do you know then if it is a pattern codom abnormality or just the simple trait be passed down?
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Well, this is what I know. If I breed a Newport to a banded king, I get a certain amount of Newports. It varies. It can be 60% or 40% Newports in a clutch and they are 100% Newports. There's no in betweeners. Either they are Newports or banded in a clutch.
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"And I am saying a simple trait in cal kings is more apt to be passed down and effect a cal king no matter where it is from."

There's a lot of things that happen in hobby Cal kings that don't happen in the wild. Take for instance Dennis' b&w banded he bred to a b&w striped aberrant. In nature, within the range of the SD striper, there are striped kings that pop up ever so often with an aberrant stripe. The stripe can be replaced with dots, dashes, and bars. These kings have no direct relation to the Newports. There are traits in Newports that are not expressed within the range of the SD striper. The pairing I mentioned above produced a full on Newport, probably because the striped aberrant came from a clutch mixed with both morphs (SD striper & Newport). That does not happen in the wild, so yes, it does matter where where a king comes from.

Newports are codominant, and there is absolutely no evidence showing they are not. But, there is a lot of evidence proving they are. I don't know why you even question that. codominant genes show up in all kings of snakes. There's no reason to believe it can't happen in Cal kings just because it doesn't, or doesn't seem to, happen with Florida kings.
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Great info throughout this thread.....

I've always been under the impression that striped, banded, aberrant, Newport, scrambled, etc. morphs were the product of polymorphism and none were recessive, dominant nor codominant......

Maybe no one ever did the "research" or counted the morphs their offspring expressed.....
Maybe the thought of locality phenotypes was lost with the morph craze.....

This is why I enjoy your site so much Ross.....after all of these years no one has put together the California king info like you have...I commend you on that.....

I've always wondered if the MSP trait with thayeri was codominant.....when a MSP is bred to a leonis their offspring seem to be mainly MSPs but it does depend on the parents of the sire and dam....
I believe many traits are recessive and codominantbut variability/polymorphism hides the idea that it occurs.......

Hell.....we just proved recently that the melanistic trait in thayeri was truly recessive........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I've always been under the impression that striped, banded, aberrant, Newport, scrambled, etc. morphs were the product of polymorphism and none were recessive, dominant nor codominant......

Maybe no one ever did the "research" or counted the morphs their offspring expressed.....
Maybe the thought of locality phenotypes was lost with the morph craze.....
Yep, all that and the fact that most keepers didn't know what was going on with these different morphs in the wild. I give Brian Hubbs all the credit in the world for bringing that to my attention. He's the one that got me interested in searching out the various Cal king morphs of So Cal.

This is why I enjoy your site so much Ross.....after all of these years no one has put together the California king info like you have...I commend you on that.....
Thanks a lot, John. That means a lot! I've learned a lot my self, gathering the information.

I've always wondered if the MSP trait with thayeri was codominant.....when a MSP is bred to a leonis their offspring seem to be mainly MSPs but it does depend on the parents of the sire and dam....
I believe many traits are recessive and codominantbut variability/polymorphism hides the idea that it occurs.......
This reminds me of the striped Cal kings. In order to really understand their genetics, you must breed locality specimens as well, not just go by captive produced kings of unknown origin.

Hell.....we just proved recently that the melanistic trait in thayeri was truly recessive........
I'm surprised it took so long. Maybe the interest just wasn't there.
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"we just proved recently that the melanistic trait in thayeri was truly recessive"......
I remember a guy who bred a melanistic thayeri to a normal ruthveni and got all black babies......
What could've been going on there??

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

>>"we just proved recently that the melanistic trait in thayeri was truly recessive"......
>>I remember a guy who bred a melanistic thayeri to a normal ruthveni and got all black babies......
>>What could've been going on there??

Honestly I have no idea how that could happen unless the ruthveni was het for melanistic or there is a different melanistic strain that is polymorphic.

The idea of different strains has risen many times but I only know of one person that claims melanism in thayeri is polymorphism and not an inherited recessive gene.

The rest of "us" declare the gene to be recessive.......maybe we all have one strain except the other person.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

..do you know of a melanistic L. ruthveni?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

>>..do you know of a melanistic L. ruthveni?

No I don't.....but we didn't know of an amel ruthveni until it hatched......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I'm pretty sure there is a lavender albino mosaic =). Only time and a bit o' luck will tell if it proves out mosaic in addition to lavender albino also!

In all seriousness, I have seen a number of mosaics het albino for sale in the NYC area. So someone is clearly working on making them in addition to you.
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Kyle R. Mara

Common sense is genius dressed in its working clothes. - Ralph Waldo Emerson

http://scaledvertebrates.weebly.com/