Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have some questions for the big guys on the forum here.
In one of the previous topics Al Stotton shows us some babies and you can see that they are all looking different.
Different phenoptypes is how Al discribes them.
Jason Nelson says in a reply that this is nothing special and that you can hatch different looking albino's in one clutch.
If you look at the pictures of adults, which Al Stotton just posted, you can clearly see that they are all looking totaly different.
In a post of Jason Nelson I read some babies are Dyer and others are Bechtel.
I'm very sorry but I can not follow anymore.
If you say that all the albino's in that clutch of Al Stotton are all the same why is that not counting for the clutch of Jason Nelson.
Bechtel and Dyer are just 2 different looking albino's with a name on it.
The albino's of Al Stotton also look different from each other so should we not give them also their own name?
Who has the right to give names and who does not have the right.
I don't want to offend you Jason but you also talk about Red Albino for your bullsnakes.
Very nice looking snakes as I told you many times.
Should we not just call them "red looking albino's" if you use your theory on the annectens babies of Al Stotton.
I'm not a master in genetics, but I keep and breed snakes for fun since 20 years and I see that new names are mostly given by people in the US.
Does we Europeans also have the right to give names to new types of albino?
To be honnest, the albino's Al Stotton breeds are not resembling Applegate albino's anymore.
Hope I did not offend anybody with this topic but sometimes I have problems to follow.
And sorry if my English is not perfect, English is not my native language.

Hi John,

I don't think you intend to offend anyone, but I also have to agree with some of your points here for sure.

I for one cannot understand how a locale specific sayi e.g Red Bulls can be termed as albino reds, it doesn't make sense does it really.How can they ever be a locale and a morph at the same time. For me though that's a whole other discussion I care less about as I do not own a single sayi

Also that's not my point here , but as for me spending several years combining several albino annectens bloodlines to get new phenos well I guess its this simple.......

....I know for a FACT that some of the albinos I've created are at the VERY LEAST brand new,never before done combos genetically.
As for coming up with new cool sounding phenos names I'll leave that to others for now John.Perhaps I should consult mt ball python morph buddies on that. LOL

Look at my super hypo line for example NO one produces these like the quality I have and the reason is quite simple. Klumpers gave me a one of a kind hypo F and I 'proved her out' and also line bred from her to replicate the 'non fading' black (not purple) on the neck.

AL

Was that Jason kind of eluded to the variance of a particular phenotype within a given clutch might not constitute naming each individual appearance as a distinct visual phenotype in and of itself.(not trying to put words into anyone's mouth here,that's just what I got from reading the reply.) I agree with Al in that,after numerous generations of visual change in appearance of a particular "line",it may be totally appropriate of refer to those animals as being of Applegate "origin",or "influence",but if the distinct visual change carries through in multiple breeding trials,it may warrant giving this new appearance a distinct name,while still making it clear to potential customers,of the phenotype's genetic origin.(especially if there are more than one variety that may not be genetically incompatible,ie; "Applegate","Bechtel","Dyer",etc...)

Well said. Much better then I can put it.

Jason

Hi John

I'm not offened. Its good conversation. I want you and Al to know I'm not discrediting Al's work either. I love Als SDs beautiful animals. Al has done amazing work over the years and produce some of the best animals.

Now don't get recessive traits mixed up with color variations. Example, do all Kingville Red Bulls look the same. Answer is No. I could more examples, if needed. What I 'm getting at is there is color variations in genetics, bloodlines, morphs... and on and on.
Albino Applegates SDs can come in yellows, oranges and red but they are still are Albino Applegates. You could line breed the reds ones and call them Red Albino Applegates but they are still combatable with Yellow Albino Applegates. So in turn they are not a separate genetic morph.

Known San Diego Gopher recessive genetic morphs
Albino Applegate
Bechtel Albino
McGurty Albino
Dyer
Klumper (Dyer and Klumper are combatable)
Anery
Limburg Striped
Patternless
Whitesided

I may have miss a few or not know of a few. List does not have multi morphs.

May clutch posted below is multi hets, so that is why I can produce 2 different albinos in the same clutch.

Jason

OK Jason, but where do all those names come from.
Bechtel, Dyer, McGurty.
Who gives those names?
Are all those types of albino compatable?
Are this names of the person who first bred them?
If yes, than I can call the hypo(ish) looking bullsnakes I hatched Dhont hypos.

HI John

Founders name most morphs. I like to call stuff what it looks like.

Albino Applegate = Bob Applegate
Dyer Albino = Jack Dyer
Klumpers Albino = Micheal Klumper
Albino Bechtel = Bechtel. Fore give me on the first name
Albino McGurty = ***** McGurty.Fore give me on the first name, I know it just drawing a blank.

Yeah John you can call it a Dhont Hypo. I think that would be cool!

Combatable Albinos
I hear McGurty is with Applegates
I know Dyers and klumpers are! Maybe the same thing???
Dyers and Bechtels are usually het for one another.

Green Dyers are double albinos Dyers and Bechtels.

I have bred McGurtys to Dyers all came out normal
I have bred Applegates to Bechtels all came out normal

This year I bred McGurty to Snow, wait for eggs to hatch.

Here is a pic of a Dyergate

jason

WHITESIDED SDs??!?

I've never heard of/seen one!

Also Bruce Atherton? I think his name is spelled right has a line of odd striped/aberrant annectans from yorba linda locality.

There was a pet store owner somewhere in los angeles county that owns or owned a scaleless SD and never bred it even when offered a great sum of cash for a breeding loan.
-----
Pituophis c. annectans
Senticolis t. intermedia
Rhinechis scalaris
Elaphe bairdi
Lampropeltis zonata
Lampropeltis t. campbelli
Lampropeltis m. thayeri

Yeah Rick from Renegade Reptiles had a WC Whitesided annectan. Not sure what happened to it or who ended up with it.

Jason