Reptile & Amphibian Forums

On 08/03/2012 I noticed one of my gravid girls (Tawney) had left a waxy stool on her cage floor. Not due for another 11 days I thought it was early but not too early. She was in her water bowl so I got pictures of both.

Over the next several days she was showing typical signs of a female about to deliver. Restless, thinning in the upper half while bulking out in the lower half, conserving heat and looking for just the right spot.

This morning, 08/08 (6 days before due date), I got up early for a morning conference call and checked on her at 6:20 and she had just started delivering babies. Looked like four babies so far.

In the few minutes it took to call into my conference, get my PC up and running and snap a few pics there were another 3 babies born. This next pic shows a gap between groups being pushed out…..

And the next bulge with babies being pushed toward vent……

This is where it gets really interesting. See the next ones being pushed out, starts a few inches pre-vent….

The next group was a slug and a live baby. The baby was born alive but with a popped sack and head last. That fits right in with my theory about Stills being caused my females rupturing sacks while pushing out slugs. In this case the baby was born before it could drown inside mom. The baby is clearly out of the sack in the foreground.

Mom checking out her babies….

Still another group or two to go, you can see a bulge in the middle with skinnier ares to either side.

Last was another slug/baby pair. Started as two bulges, mom was pushing/struggling with the slug for a while unable to pass it, then the next bulge moved down and the live baby behind the slug helped the slug out, the baby was also burn out of the sack but alive. Actually, the tail and head were born with the belly still in mom. I reached in and helped mom get the rest out with a little pull on the baby.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Very cool pics! Congrats on a nice litter.... did I see an Anery in there? So cool when you can catch them in the act. Very interesting as well about likely confirming the reason for full term stills. Such a shame, but understandable.
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Aubrey Ross

www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

I know the one you're talking about, I don't think Anery, just a low color one, also that's the out of the sack, head out last baby and Just after being born.

Was Anery x Hypo for DH Ghosts.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Ahh I see... this is your ghostbusters litter from the post below.
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Aubrey Ross

www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

I ain't afraid a no ghost!!
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Have not pulled the babies yet but I did count them as they came out, 15 babies and two slugs. Of course subject to update when I do the final count.

BTW, as of lunch time, most are still in their egg sacks and both slugs mysteriously disappeared!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Congrats on the litter! I thought ghosts right away from the post below, but then thought I remembered you telling me you would only have double hets this year...still very cool though!

Okay, questions...or mainly one, but I'll give you the whole thought process around it...

How much of a marker is the "waxy poop" as you described it for a girl about to give birth?

Here's why I'm asking, for one thing, I still have this "too good to be true" feeling about two ovulations in one day from back about four months ago...you saw the picture (if you remember?) though and even though the hypo girl wasn't as obvious as the anery, she still looked to be ovulating and there isn't really another explanation for why she would have looked that way. Since then, she's been a totally random feeder, might feed for a few weeks in a row, might skip a few weeks, might feed every other week sometimes...feeding on weanling sized rats. To me she hasn't really acted like I would expect a gravid female to act, right after the suspected ovulation (for lack of a better way to describe it) she spent a few weeks curled up on the hot spot, but then since then hasn't really been on it all that much, where the anery girl has been glued to it since her ovulation (up until about the last few days anyways, now she's back and forth between the heat and the waterbowl a lot, laying inverted, all kinds of crazy stuff like that).

Here's kind of where I'm getting to, and sorry to make this longer than maybe it should have been...

Hypo girl hasn't to me "acted gravid", I can't figure out if sometimes I see her laying and looking a little thicker, or belly hanging down if I hold her up is actually from being gravid, or me wanting to see something that isn't there. She doesn't really look swollen from being gravid right now, although she's a big girl and if she's just carrying a small litter it might not be so obvious to see, along with her being so light colored it could hide some of the scales being stretched apart some too possibly? If it wasn't for having seen/known about the suspected ovulation and someone just showed her to me, I doubt I would think she was gravid...I only feel very little in her belly and can't say if that's babies, or an upcoming bowel movement...either way, it's not much. A week and a half or so ago she fed on a weanling rat, about 4 days ago I cleaned up a "waxy poop" just like you showed a picture of...so that's where my question is coming from as for wondering how much of a marker that is for things to be coming soon, because I've been even questioning if she's actually gravid or not.

Thanks for reading, sorry if I type too much, but I wanted to try to share all the thoughts in my head behind what I was wondering...I do appreciate your opinion very much!

Charlie

The "waxy stool" is a very good indicator of an impending litter but really only for those females that are not eating and pooping all along. IMO it's natures way of voiding any waste products and clearing the way for the slime to come out clean.

I offer food every three weeks before due date. Most of the time the gravid females stop eating all together on their own. Only time will tell because I've also seen a female that was not gravid continue to eat and deliver a small litter.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Thanks Dave!

Obviously, my confusion continues! lol I think I kind of feel like right now there should be something from her if even a really small litter, but at the same time I think I don't want to think that too much and get my hopes up and then get nothing. Before the rat she ate a week and a half ago, she'd skipped feeding for about three weeks.

I guess I'll know for sure that she was definitely gravid the day I find nice gooey mess in the bottom of the cage...along with knowing what the exact due date was too right? lol

Charlie

Charlie,

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but what you describe does not sound like a gravid girl. Every year I put together more pairs than I get litters. Simply stated they do not all take. Including some that seem to go through the breeding process properly. Key to me is she is still feeding, and from what you indicate, you offer fairly often?

My really gravid girls more often than not will skip at least two or three meals but I offer every three weeks only so that becomes months. Also, for the most part, the gravid ones are obvious. For example this girl, Tawney, had a picture perfect breeding cycle. Observed mating on 7 days in a 23 day period. Had a visual ovulation 8 days after last observed mating. Shed 20 days after ovulation (a few days longer than normal). And gave birth at POS plus 111 days, a few days longer than my average 117.

Tawney's last meal was February 19th, just before she and Billy started mating. She has refused every meal since then.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Bearer of bad news or not, I wanted to try to explain all I could about what I think I'm seeing so I could get your opinion, so I appreciate your feedback and letting me bounce things off of you.

I think the single biggest thing that still leaves me scratching my head over it, is if what I saw way back on april 4th wasn't an ovulation, then what was it? And I don't think I'm really expecting an answer to that as much as I'm just saying that that's kind of the root to my confusion and why even though I'm really on the fence about it, I still lean just a little in the direction of thinking she might just be carrying a very small litter.

You're correct about me offering food more often, I still had been offering food to the hypo on about a weekly basis even though I've been giving her much smaller rodents than I would have normally. (The anery I've been just putting a rat pup or prekilled mouse in front of her nose every few weeks, closer to like you do, I don't think she's eaten a single time since ovulation). So even though she's still feeding, which is kind of a sign she wouldn't be gravid, she will only feed on something that's maybe 1/3 the size of what she used to eat.

I don't really have my hopes up right now, but I'm also not giving up hope completely and will keep my fingers crossed for awhile.

Thanks again for your thoughts!
Charlie

They will do what they want. I've seen textbook mating activities result in nothing at all. I've also seen seemingly not gravid females deliver small litters. Even know of a litter that resulted from one single day together with a male. Must have been a really good "date"!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I could get her ultrasounded fairly easy, but on the chance that she actually is gravid, I don't want to take a chance on stressing her by taking her down to the clinic. It's not like it's going to actually help things any other than solving my confusion, it won't make her become gravid if she's not...and I'll know probably by the end of this month anyways.

Charlie

8.7 live Double Het babies including some real stunners and two slugs that mysteriously disappeared while I was at work.

Most of the babies were still in their sacks when I got back home after a full day at work. They could be teenagers. And even better, not a one nipped at me while sexing, the most mellow litter of babies I can remember.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Congrats on the babies Dave,

Would have been nice to see a ratio in favor of females, your male skewed liter will make it hard for me to talk you down

As always I look forward to the “lets make a deal” game
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John Wiseman
www.rainbowsbydesign.com

18.30 BRBs (as of 6-20-2012)
3.8 others

Well, I can say it was definitely NOT tater salad!!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

The babies have all shed, here are some pics....

Male TA-BK-1201

Male TA-BK-1202

Male TA-BK-1203

Male TA-BK-1204

Male TA-BK-1205

Male TA-BK-1206

Male TA-BK-1207


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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Male TA-BK-1208

Female TA-BK-1209

Female TA-BK-1210

Female TA-BK-1211

Female TA-BK-1212

Female TA-BK-1213

Female TA-BK-1214


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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Female TA-BK-1215


-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Beautiful stuff Dave!