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I have a yearling Black Milksnakeabout 90 cm. long that recently started to use his tail to poke my wrist while being handled. I'm wondering if other milksnakes do this, and if so, what's the purpose. Are Gaigeae especially known to do this?

Also, my Black Milksnake while darker than he was originally, hasn't shown any dramatic change to black. Have others had similar experience with theirs?

Thanks!

Getting poked by the tail is normal... snake is just trying to get a good grip/purchase on your arm... a good anchor point for it is with the tail... so you get poked while it tries to stabilize itself. Happens to me with all my ssp's of milks.

I would think your BM would be darker at this point but the change can be a slow thing... my only adult was 3years old before I could say I no longer see the tricolor pattern. I have one that isn't 2 years old yet and I can only see a few hints of red on him.

I'm hoping one of the guys that are more expert on IDing snakes chimes in... it's a little difficult to tell with blurry photos but I'm wondering if you have a BM.

Gerry

Thanks, Gerry... I assumed he was supporting himself, but wasn't sure Is there a use for the pointed tail in the wild?

I'm sure hoping that he's a 2011 Black Milksnake as he was listed at Hamm. A friend picked him up for me. I'm posting a closeup that's a bit less blurry.

.

Drdan... now I'm really hoping some expert chimes in here.

I'm going to make the assumption here that by Hamm you mean Hamm Germany... in which case the chances are you have a BM from the Miramar locality in Costa Rica... most European BM's from my understanding are from that locality... assuming all that to be true your BM may never turn completely black, specimens from the Miramar area simply don't.

Still assuming all that is true I would expect a little more change to have occurred during the 4 month to 12 month time frame. Miramar animals vary greatly in how much they will change... I'd post a pic of clutch mates showing just how variable they can be but the picture isn't mine so I hesitate.

If no one smarter than I am offers up an opinion... e-mail me and I'll send you that picture

Gerry

Not an expert by any means, and the pics aren't real clear (I'm no helmut newton myself btw), but the head scalation is suspect. My black milk experience prior to color change tells me there should be more lighter snout scales (similar to andesiana) versus that banded appearance I'm seeing. Keep in mind black milks have a remarkable irredescence prior to and after color change.
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Chad N. Lundberg

My thoughts exactly... I am by no means an expert either, but something just doesn't seem right with the head markings as you point out.

Gerry

"I'm going to make the assumption here that by Hamm you mean Hamm Germany... in which case the chances are you have a BM from the Miramar locality in Costa Rica... most European BM's from my understanding are from that locality... assuming all that to be true your BM may never turn completely black, specimens from the Miramar area simply don't"

Well done Gerry, because I couldn't have said it any better. This is exactly what I first thought as soon as I saw it. It does key-out nicely as L.t.gaigeae, and VERY likely originates from Miramar, Costa Rica stock (Puntarenas province) as you mentioned. It still is very young and has plenty of ontogenetic tranformation to undergo, and some will change a bit more than others and at different rates as they mature.

In any case though, it certainly does look to be a young Black milk. Straight snout band, rear-set temporal band, high ring-count, thin triads, and black tipping all seem to key-out well..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Well the snake has to end somehow... it could end in a rattle or one of those funky caudal lures... but most just end in a few scales covering the end of the spine.

Gerry

How many red body rings does this animal have? My black hatchlings typically have 22-24.
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Chad N. Lundberg

Thanks everyone for all the input...

Yes, the animal was picked up for me by a friend in Hamm. I'm kink of relieved he's indeed a Black Milksnake, but I've have been wondering lately when he's finally going to make some convincing color changes! All I need is for some expert to chime in and say I have a super rare variety of L.t. gaigeae that essentially remains a tricolor!!!

Anyway, I Googled "Miramar" and "Black Milksnake", and came up with this information, written by Scott Ballard:

Black milksnake History:

　
The San Antonio Zoo didn't collect any of the founding stock themselves. It was collected by Fred Antonio and George Van Horn.

A year and a half ago, Paul Polzin and I decided to get as much information on gaigeae in the hobby today as we could. What we found was that Fred Antonio and George Van Horn collected what they thought was a mussurana in the mid 1980's between Limon and Siquirres at the locality of Blanco, Costa Rica (very near Liverpool just west of Puerto Limon). That adult female laid eleven eggs for them, which hatched on Sept. 14, 1985, and all were of course tri-colored.

One pair of those babies was obtained by Alan Kardon of the San Antonio Zoo. Additionally, Tom Crutchfield had imported a 4' wild-caught male that was almost totally jet black and big-bodied, around December 1984 from somewhere in Costa Rica. Tom had told me then it came from a collector in Costa Rica who had permits to collect it and a male stuarti that Tom also had for sale at the time. The San Antonio Zoo also obtained this 4' male snake. So we now know that all 2.1 of the San Antonio Zoo founder gaigeae stock were Costa Rican animals, and ones that all get black very quickly.

The Central Florida Zoo line can be traced primarily to some of those original eleven hatchlings from Blanco, as well as possibly a few others that Fred Antonio and George Van Horn collected later in the 1980's from the Turrialba/Siquirres region in Costa Rica. And from my understanding, the Mark Bell line is a mix of Central Florida Zoo stock with San Antonio Zoo stock. So actually, the San Antonio Zoo line and the Central Florida Zoo lines seem to be closely related, and for the most part, are locality animals.

So it seems that all of the gaigeae in the hobby today are from Costa Rican origin, although different localities within the highlands of Costa Rica. In addition to the locality of Providencia (San Jose province) that Jeff and Dell are working with and Shannon's stock from Guayacan/Siquirres (Limon province), there also is locality stock out there from Miramar in the Puntarenas province.

Yep, I just talked to Scott tonight as a matter of fact and he said he has seen some Miramar gaigeae that basically retained there tricolor pattern into mature adulthood. They are from a lower elevation than the other three locale bloodlines. The newest line to be imported into the states were only maybe three young pairs originating from Providencia, Costa Rica back in 2009.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Hopefully mine will not remain a tricolor! I specifically wanted a BM since they classically become a large, jet black animal...

Thanks for the info!

After looking at some pics of a few Miaramar locale gaigeae from a friend in Germany, I forgot how incredibly micropholis-like his were, so I am now thinking yours isn't a Miramar locale after all and is one of the other gaigeae bloodlines that become darker.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks, Doug! I guess time will tell... I am hopeful that it will turn solid black.

Yes, time will tell. Being as it is still so young, it has plenty of darkening yet to do. Scott also thinks it looks like a San Antonio Zoo line gaigeae. Here's a very young one that looks very similar to yours.

cheers, ~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

VERY similar animal, Doug. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that my Gaigeae starts getting dark soon! So far as I mentioned, he's pretty much as he was when I got him in December 2011. He's pretty calm, and as you can expect, he has no feeding issues!

Thanks!

Here's a video showing 2 Black Milksnake yearlings... One is from Don Soderberg (sp?), and the other is San Antonio stock. The San Antonio animal does look similar to mine, and probably hasn't changed much yet since it was hatched.

Yes, but here is the funny part in regards to that video. You will no doubt find this very humorous. I just got off the phone with Don Soderberg, and he told me very specifically that he acquired his stock from Dave and Tracy Barker (V.P.I.) around 9 years ago who got them DIRECTLY from the San Antonio Zoo curator (Alan Kardon) many years prior to that...LOL!.. So those go back to the mid 80's from between Limon and Siquirres at the locality of Blanco, Costa Rica (very near Liverpool just west of Puerto Limon) and the 4 foot male they also got from Tom Crutchfield around the same time that were all used in their breeding program.

In other words, it is like many gaigeae, they are all individuals and can darken at varying rates, ages and amounts. I have a young pair here that are a year different in age and vary dramatically. One looks about identical to yours when it was younger. All of these are supposed to get very dark as adults, so it will be interesting to see what happens with yours.

I bet the guy that did the video would be pretty embarrassed to find out that both those snakes in his hand originate from the very same bloodline locale..HAHA!!

The video was posted about 4 years ago, and Don Soderberg hasn't worked with those for much longer than that, so who knows what he was told and by who?.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

In light of the new information, this has really become interesting! Thanks, and I will keep you updated...

Yep, sure is. I knew you would find that stuff very interesting.

Also, just for s***s and giggles, on the snake's next shed, count the dorsal scale rows at mid-body and see if they total 19 scales...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Better yet... Send me an address, and I'll be happy to send you the shedded skin. He usually sheds out in one perfect skin.

Just PM'd you regarding the shed skin.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

haha That is some good info, Doug.
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Hi Chad,....

I count 23 RBR from neck to vent on his 4 month old photo next to the pen that he posted, which is fine of course, especially since there were only 18 specimens examined for their meristics description in ~Systematics~ per Kenneth L. Williams.

cheers, ~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yep, agree. And, this photo sways my opinion, although I've not seen that head scalation in bm's, but my only experience is w/San Antonio stock. Hey, I appreciate all your insight btw!!!
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Chad N. Lundberg

Hey, sure thing Chad. Always enjoy talking milks!.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

The black milks I used to keep also did that frequently and much more than any other milksnake species I've worked with.
It always seemed like a defensive action as opposed to being used for any kind of grasping or balancing.
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Randy Whittington

It just might be a defense mechanism, as he doesnìt use it all the time. Thanks!

At this point you have answers/opinions that go both ways on tail stabbing question and on whether or not your snake will become completely black.

If you think of it post a few pics over the next year... my curiosity as to the outcome is certainly piqued.

Good looking snake btw.

Gerry

I'll post some pics every once and a while. Hoping they'll be showing the color change progressions Black Milksnakes are "supposedly" known for!

I contacted my friend, and he said he purchased my Gaigeae from La Ferme Tropicale of Paris, which had a booth at the HAMM EXPO.

http://www.lafermetropicale.com/home/homepage_new_uk.php

If anyone knows where the company got the animals, great. If not, I will send them an e-mail and find out. I had better write the e-mail in French jst in case...!!!

Thanks everyone for your help and interest!

The head markings of the snake on their website is nothing like I've seen on other BM's... hopefully others with more experience will offer up some insights.

You certainly have started an interesting thread here on the forum.

Gerry

Hi Gerry...

Yeah, I'm about as puzzled as everyone, as I assumed my GAIGEAE (??!!!) would at least begin changing into a solid black snake by now. He's not quite as bright as he was at 4 months, but he's certainly not following the popular "they begin their ontogenetic color change from between 6-10 months" hobbyist guides.

If mine ever turns into a spectacular adult similar to yours, I'll be super happy...! I sent an e-mail to Le Ferme Tropicale in Paris, and am awaiting thei response.

Thanks!

P.S. Here's the snake you mentioned. There were 2 available at HAMM, a male and a female. This is apparently the unsold female...

Thanks for the compliment on my BM Jade... she is a beauty and a pleasure... I never get tired of saying that.

Hopefully others, with more experience, will have more to say based on that photo... I've never seen a BM with those head markings but there's a lot I haven't seen.

Gerry

That looks like an authentic gaigeae to me. Could easily have some Miramar gaigeae influence. Could be a Miramar x SA Zoo?. No telling without knowing the origin of La Ferme Tropicale's stock.

Miramars typically have very "micropholis"-looking temporals and snouts, and generally have wider triads (rings of three). That one from the photo "seems" to have a fairly tight triad spacing, and some other slight differences too, so that is why I say it "could" be a Miramar x SA Zoo gaigeae. It's all speculation and guess work at this point unless more is known regarding their gaigeae bloodline origin. But I am checking on a few things too.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Looks like gaigeae to me. Here's one of mine at about 1 year that has a similar head pattern.

Also on the tail poking thing, I have definitely noticed it with BM's and I personally have never seen it with the other milks I have worked with (pueblans and easterns). I thought it was odd behaviour the first couple of times I saw it as well.

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Joe

Presented here. Who was the breeder? Did any lineage information come with the animal at purchase time? If you can find out who the breeder is, it would be much easier to just contact them and ask for some background information. It's worth a shot, anyway.

For what it's worth, I agree with the other: it's a gaigeae, but knowing what the locality (or even lineage) is for that particular animal will tell us a lot.

Lampropeltis triangulum - Salina Cruz, Oaxaca, Mexico

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_______________________

-Cole

I purchase my feeder mice from a friend who picked up the animal at the Hamm Expo. He has lots of contacts in the pet trade, so I will ask him to try to find out about the breeder. If I find any info, I will definitely post it here.

Where are you in Europe mate? As I'm aware there were a few Gaigae's being sold in the UK which were also bought in Hamm. So no doubt the same supplier/breeder?

Scott

I have a sibling pair of SA Zoo stock black milks that hatched out Oct of 11. They are pretty much exactly the same size (eating large mice) but the male is already 95% bi-colored... very little yellow. While the female is just starting to develope heaving tipping... up until 6 weeks ago, it didn't look like she would ever turn black. Also, the male never developed any red in the yellow bands, while the female developed tons of red/orange in her yellow bands before they began to darken.

I think black milks are just pretty variable in terms of the speed that they cross over to the dark side.

Well said Aaron, you are absolutely correct. Scott Ballard has noted what seem to be a possible sexual dimorphism in some he has owned, and produced. Nothing etched in granite conclusive-wise, but noteworthy in any case. Only more breedings will tell the tale.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I had a pair of Milks many years ago, that were said to be Stuarti, but I was never able to confirm it. They also had a sharp tip on the tail, and would jab me with it whenever I held them.
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Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

A little off the beaten path or wall, you make the call, not sure if any of you have or not, but catching a mudsnake will get you not bitten, but poked by the mudsnake as if he is trying to force his tail through you to make you let him go, lol. The entire tailtip is one large thick shiny black scale that resembles a "big stinger". I have caught many through the years, even trying to convert some over to mice (yeah right, easier to convert eastern hognos) and have never been bitten by one even in the high excitement of the initial catch. But I have been poked to the point I actually was close to bleeding, so forcefully do they jam the tail in. I never got poked by any milks very hard, but I did have a burmese returned by a stripper once because the club she danced at took offense to the "playful" tail jabbing in the wrong place at her club, lol.
Back to the milkssssssnakes... snakebuz
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It's a sick world and I'm a happy man!

Yep!,.....Mud Snakes natural defense was the very first thing I thought of when the tail-jabbing was mentioned too..LOL!

Hope all is well, John!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks for the info, snakebuz...

My Black Milksnake did it only twice, and it didn't hurt at all. I always handle him the same way, and make sure his body is well supported. One time when he pressed the tip of the tail into my forearm, it was immediately after I took him out of his terrarium, and I assumed he was not happy I took him out.

Yep! I've caught many Mud Snakes, and they do have a sharp pointy tail. I tried to get those things to eat anything, and everything, but they are specialized amphiuma eaters.
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Disclaimer: I do keep several snakes in pairs, and some in groups. However I realize that things can go wrong, and I have to keep a close eye on those groups, to be sure they are not being adversely affected by these living conditions. Also if one happens to eat it's cagemate, it is 100% my fault, and I know the risks in advance!

What's wrong with using CAUTION?!?!?!
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
~ Jorge Sierra www.SierraSnakes.com

This is the thread i mentioned regarding british stock of gaigae.

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snake-classifieds/648431-l-t-gaigae-black-milksnake.html

Scott