Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just a quick question. Do you provide hides for your adult kingsnakes? I was just wondering because most of mine don't seem to use them. They would get back some floor space if I removed them.

I sure do. All of mine use them.
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Genesis 1:1

I have a couple that use hides so I have them in the cage for them to use. Most of my kings though either stretch out under the aspen or curl in a long oval shape in a corner and never use hides.

Snakes, and surely Kingsnakes, use, live in, and seek, shelters for the vast majority of their life. In FACT, they do not live out. They occasionaly go out for a particular reason.

Kinda like you going swimming, people do go swimming, but do not live in the ocean. A analogy would be, if an alien caught you swimming, then keep you in a fish tank, full of water. The reason was, the alien indeed and in fact, caught you in the water.

Now back to your situation. If your snakes do not hide, then you are keeping them in conditions so foreign to their behavior, they do nothing normal. Just lay there.

Also the term "hide" is horrible and misleading, its a petshop term and has nothing to do with snakes/reptiles. ITS A PRODCUT.

Snakes live in and seek shelters. They have home shelters that they return to on a consistant basis, they have temporary shelterst that they use part time. They have winter shelters, spring shelters, summer shelters, nesting shelters, etc.

They seek shelthers to protect themselves from predators, heat, cold, dehydration, to much water, etc. They seek shelters to socialize with others of a like species. Or they seek shelters with other species of reptiles.

In the most serious of discriptions, they seek shelters for SECURITY. To feel safe and sound, to relax, to be at HOME. Hence the term, HOME SHELTER. Such shelters are burrows, cracks, crevices, hollows, etc. Some are found, some are made by the animal. To have to provide a shelter means you have not supported the individual to do what is natural, to make its own.

This should be mandatory understanding, before anyone is allowed to keep a reptile. Sorry, but thats what I believe.

Now that you should understand that, you can understand why they don't seek shelters in captivity.

To be absolutely truthful, most captives that belong to ALL of us, are insane. That is, they do not behave in a manner normal to that species or individual. Insanity is abberant behavior, non normal. etc. Insanity does not have to be deleterious. That is, it does not need to be harmful to the individual, but it often is.

Another analogy is a human serving a life sentence in solitary confinement. When that individual chooses to only sit in a chair and stare out, for the rest of his life. While that is insane, its realitively normal for the set of conditions that human is in.

So, while all normal wild or captive snakes should and do seek shelters, its realitively normal for captives that have nothing to live for to do.

Also in reality, many keepers choose to call their cages, hmmmmmmmm cages, when in fact, they are nothing more then a shelter. In those type cages, there is no LIVING area or areas that support the normal behavior of those individual snakes. Those are NOT cages, they are indeed a BOX.

Now consider, with all living beings, humans and reptiles, behaviorally speaking, if you take away the stimulus to live, they shut down or choose to NOT LIVE. YOU do not have to take away everything, just enough to cause a behavioral shut down.

Now for the good part, that choice is yours to make, your in control and its your choice as to what you want to provide for your captives. You are the warden to those prisoners.

If your happy with animals that have behaviorally shut down, then go for it. Its yours to do. Sadly I cannot say Cheers at the end of this post

p.s. for d mong, and friends, I did not mentions or say the word, bonding or the term groups. hahahahahahahaha

That was my favorite non Varanid FR post yet. Are the prasinus in the new cage yet?
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

here are some time lapse shots from the trio in that cage. Its working great

The cameras are provong to be very useful for me. It's a lot easier to watch them act normally and see what they really do. That cage is pretty nice, Fiberglass?
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

Yes. Thanks

It becomes increasingly clear the only replies allowed to an FR post must contain accolades followed by thunderous applause, anything else is deleted, so...

Good post Frank... great as you would say... insightful and thought provoking as always... well not thought provoking since you've given me the answer as to why four of my snakes seem to prefer not using a "shelter"... one question though...

Should I pad all my cages in rubber or would a softer foam I can obtain free at work suffice? I'm thinking the rubber would be okay... I mean it's not as if the snakes could get a good running start before bashing themselves headlong into a wall to end their meaningless existence. I'm considering a suicide watch on them as well... you think it's necessary?

That was funny!
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

......LOL!!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

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I could not have said it better myself.
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Genesis 1:1

>>Just a quick question. Do you provide hides for your adult kingsnakes? I was just wondering because most of mine don't seem to use them. They would get back some floor space if I removed them.

4 inches of Aspen provides shelter where the snake wants....It also allows for more living area (on top, on bottom and everywhere inbetween).

So...I don't use Petshop hides....I provide my kings numerous areas to shelter themselves at the temps/humidity they want.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Cereal boxes. They like cereal boxes.

Wine boxes too...
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Gerard

"Sleep my friend and you will see, your dreams are my reality. "

www.livebaitclip.com

GONE FISHING!!!

No wine. 12 stepper here.

Yes, I do, and in larger enclosures, multiple hides, on the warmer side and on the cooler side. I provide fairly deep substrate, usually aspen that they can burrow in and it sort of retains its shape. I like to use various plasic boxes, ones that are only a few inches thick, rubbermaide, sterilite etc. I try to buy dark ones but if not, I spray paint them (giving them plenty of time to "cure" in the desert sun before using them.) I cut a hole with a hole saw in the lid, or use a super hot metal rim to melt through, like a cookie cutter? I put some coconut coire within, and add a little moisture when shedding process starts. Works well for my snakes, and by changing the medium, it makes a reasonable egg laying chamber. I sometimes use PVC pipes for juvenile snakes. I think kings like a dark retreat, and not too big, they seem to like cramming themselves in, or under a slate or tile lying upon the coconut coire within the dark plastic box...Vic

Yes. Like JLassiter said, I also use aspen. But what you would call a hide is also my water bowl. They are the large dog dishes you get for 98 cents at Wally world. There is also some space under the bottom of the dish. I set the bowl partially over the heat source and this helps keep the humidity up. But there is no direct heat to the bottom of the dish area of the bowl. Also the dish is plenty large enough for my adult kings to soak and they are extremely hard to turn over.

As you can see my adult kings and milk snakes can fit snug under the bowl.

I do the same thing. I really like these bowls....

though he isn't a kingsnake my male L.t.polyzona uses that same type of water bowl as a shelter.

Gerry

I use deep aspen and terra cotta saucers for the kings and smaller pits. A favorite shelter is a saucer with a soda flat box over that, which also covers the moss hide. If they feel at ease they will come out and let me see them. They know they have the security of the shelter, which makes them feel relaxed. When they are hungry they come out more and sort of wave at me to get my attention, a thing they would never do in the wild, as there is no human with mice coming around to feed them. It is fascinating how they adapt to captivity. With as big a "box" as possible and interesting things in it, they seem happy. I wish I could just let them roam free but they don't come when I call them! Heere, Snakey Snakey Snakey...LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Hmm. My juvenile kings don't have hideboxes, they pretty much push the substrate up until they have like a little burrow to sit in. A couple of my adults don't have hideboxes so they just kind of chill out in the open all the time... doesn't seem to bother them. My eastern kings have very tight hideboxes that they still use, the male is actually never out of his, whenever I do see him in full he's usually way bigger than the last time I saw him haha.

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www.kingpinreptiles.com