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Who's got Chapalas?

Jeff Hardwick Aug 27, 2012 07:40 PM

Did anyone establish a breeding group of the arcifera that Shannon brought in from Germany a few years ago? Lots of cross-overs but very much a "wild type" looking arcifera and apparently a true Lk Chapala line.

There's another line (apparently) floating around that may be a remnant from Bob Applegates' very old project - true or myth?
Are the Applegate animals Chapala or another locality?

Any input and info here will help our little community of ardent milkheads.
Thanx, Jeff
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Let there be triangulum and lo, the milkhead was born.

Replies (34)

SunHerp Aug 27, 2012 08:45 PM

All Chapala animals are "Applegate" animals, but not all Applegate animals are Laguna de Chapala locale, or even triangulum, for that matter.

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_______________________

-Cole

Jeff Hardwick Aug 27, 2012 09:22 PM

I didn't know there was a hodge podge of arcifera around! The animals Shannon brought in (2008/9?)looked like Chapala but seem to have vanished overnight.
Perhaps the better title for the thread would be "who's got true locality arcifera today"?
Not even triangulum? I'm aware of the ruthveni hodge podge but have assumed the new and defined arcifera lines are actual arcifera. Not so?
Thanx for the response, let's talk soon...Jeff

>>All Chapala animals are "Applegate" animals, but not all Applegate animals are Laguna de Chapala locale, or even triangulum, for that matter.
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>_______________________
>>
>>-Cole
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Let there be triangulum and lo, the milkhead was born.

SunHerp Aug 28, 2012 09:36 AM

The only real arcifera that I know about came from the north shore of Laguna de Chapala, Jalisco and was founded by Bob Applegate. The Euro-dudes got theirs from Applegate and Shannon got some of those animals back into the US. There were also a small number of those original Applegate animals floating around the country, and they've been picked up by a couple of guys (I sent you more info in an e-mail).

Interestingly enough, there's a fairly large American ex-pat/retirement community in Chapala town... Should we be looking into an investment property? I happen to know a real estate agent there who's also a keen herper!
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_______________________

-Cole

DMong Aug 28, 2012 10:31 AM

......for the one known as "Sunherp" speaketh the truth regarding the legend of the Chapala serpent.

Jimmy and I were just talking about this last night..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Jeff Hardwick Aug 28, 2012 07:22 PM

I'm thinking a month collecting in MX followed by a refreshing swim and desert stroll into the US.....

>>The only real arcifera that I know about came from the north shore of Laguna de Chapala, Jalisco and was founded by Bob Applegate. The Euro-dudes got theirs from Applegate and Shannon got some of those animals back into the US. There were also a small number of those original Applegate animals floating around the country, and they've been picked up by a couple of guys (I sent you more info in an e-mail).
>>
>>Interestingly enough, there's a fairly large American ex-pat/retirement community in Chapala town... Should we be looking into an investment property? I happen to know a real estate agent there who's also a keen herper!
>>-----
>>_______________________
>>
>>-Cole
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Let there be triangulum and lo, the milkhead was born.

brianm616 Aug 27, 2012 11:11 PM

I've got a pair from John Emberton at EBV.

Here's a pic of my male:

Jeff Hardwick Aug 28, 2012 07:26 PM

That's the ones! Drop me a line would you pls?
Thanx, Jeff

>>I've got a pair from John Emberton at EBV.
>>
>>Here's a pic of my male:
>>
>>
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Let there be triangulum and lo, the milkhead was born.

gerryg Aug 28, 2012 03:58 PM

Nice to see it all summed up in one and at one time. They are... for what I can foresee... going to be my last south of the border pick-up. And then I work on having Cole part with two of his best flame-sided... of course I could have the order wrong.

Thanks for all the info Jimmy.

Gerry

DMong Aug 28, 2012 04:53 PM

Hat's-off on the excellent arcifera post Jimmy!

~Doug
Image
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

wildlines Aug 28, 2012 08:42 PM

Hi Jeff,

I currently have 10 L.t.arcifera from Applegates old stock and Shannon's animals. The two groups do look diferent and I plan to keep strains of each. They are all from the same founding stock but have either changed through breeding or there may have been from different areas but all near Lake Chapala. I have seen several photos of wild arcifera and they fit with the wild variations.

Jack

wildlines Aug 28, 2012 08:50 PM

This the pair I really look forward to breeding in 2013.

gerryg Aug 29, 2012 04:56 PM

Have to agree with Jimmy... both fine looking animals but that bottom one is a real looker... should be a nice match up.

Gerry

Jeff Hardwick Aug 31, 2012 09:10 PM

Easily the better post of 2012 and we saw some amazing pics. Thanx everybody for the PMs and info provided!
Jeff
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Let there be triangulum and lo, the milkhead was born.

Burnsy Aug 29, 2012 12:29 AM

Hi,

I have to correct things here. I shipped over some so called European arcifera which are actually considered to be ruthveni and got some real arcifera (Bob Apllegate Line) a back. The Applegates are the ones pictured on my website. I don't work with the ruthveni anymore.

Gerrit
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http://www.lampropeltis.de.vu

wildlines Aug 29, 2012 01:08 PM

here's the adult photo from the german website and the baby photo from Shannon's in the USA.

DMong Aug 29, 2012 01:40 PM

Yeah, this is pretty confusing, because that adult looks to be a straight-up L.t.arcifera in every feature to me, even though there is some light snout mottling. I don't see any noticeable ruthveni influence in it at all.

The baby seems identical too except with a dark snout.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

SunHerp Aug 29, 2012 06:58 PM

The original Tapalpa, Jalisco (Rancho San Francisco) ruthveni were collected by the Dallas Zoo gang. At the time, Williams had lumped Lampropeltis ruthveni into Lampropeltis triangulum arcifera (major ooops, we now know). So, the animals were called arcifera 'cause "the man" said so, despite actually being ruthveni. It was later shown by Bill Gartska that the two were very different animals and that Williams just couldn't tell them apart. Many moons passed, with hobbyists calling the Tapalpa line animals "arcifera" before it became apparent that a major mix-up had taken place.

We've had both the Tapalpa, Jalisco and Amealco, Queretaro locales of L. ruthveni here in the US since the start. Same thing with the Laguna de Chapala, Jalisco L. t. arcifera. All three lines came from Mexico to the US by collectors, and were then acquired by the European guys. Then, some cool animals from those same lines came back across the ocean.

If I remember correctly, Gerrit and the other Euro-dudes acquired Tapalpa, Jalisco stock descended from the original Dallas Zoo animals, as did everyone else (Applegate, etc.). Gerrit happened to have some cool animals that Shannon wanted (Shannon, step in and correct me if I'm wrong), but not because he couldn't get Tapalpa animals here in the US.
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_______________________

-Cole

SunHerp Aug 29, 2012 07:01 PM

A copy of the paper detailing the first breedings of both L. t. campbelli and the Tapalpa (Rancho San Francisco), Jalisco L. ruthveni by the Zoo guys can be found on Bob Hanson's website: www.sierraherps.com/.

I'd also be happy to provide a copy in PDF format for those interested. Just drop me an e-mail.

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_______________________

-Cole

wildlines Aug 30, 2012 02:50 PM

Thanks Cole,

anyone have any idea what year those original Lake Chapala arcifera came into the US?

Jack

SunHerp Aug 30, 2012 05:11 PM

I'd have to dig to see if I can find that info. All I can remember off the top of my head is that they were collected near Mezcala de la Asuncion, Jalisco on the north shore of Laguna de Chapala. Bob would probably be happy to tell you - his e-mail address is available on his website. If you can't find it, drop me a line and I'll give it to you.
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_______________________

-Cole

wildlines Aug 31, 2012 08:20 AM

okay, I have his address. I have talked to him several times in the past. One more thing. I don't have any of Appletree's books. Has he published any other photos of the Lake Chapala arcifera other than the photo on his website? If so does anyone have a copy they could post?

Jack

wildlines Aug 29, 2012 07:25 AM

If you have information on the guy in Texas and can provide it, I would love to get it. I have tried to find anyone keeping or breeding L.t.arcifera but had not heard of him. You can email me if that is better. Thanks, Jack

brianm616 Aug 29, 2012 11:23 AM

I'm pretty sure they all come from the same founding stock. John said he used to wholesale most of the what he produced to Shannon.

Sinaloans are doing well. I have six clutches that should be hatching out next month I even picked up a nice 13 RBR male Cosala from John Cherry to add to my gene pool.

It's been a good season so far too. How's yours going Jimmy?

brianm616 Aug 29, 2012 11:26 AM

That thing is awesome Jimmy. It's the only thing I want to add to my collection (well, maybe conanti too).

wildlines Aug 29, 2012 02:14 PM

Yeah, I'm positive it's the same snake. I must have missed something. Did Shannon's "Lake Chapala"L.t.arcifera come from germany or go to germany?

SunHerp Aug 29, 2012 07:02 PM

Please see my post re: ruthveni below.
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_______________________

-Cole

DMong Aug 29, 2012 04:06 PM

...Yeah, I didn't notice before, but after looking at it after you mentioned it, that is indeed the same animal in both pics...LOL!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

SunHerp Aug 29, 2012 07:05 PM

Jimmy said:
I heard it as the other way around.

Si! Yo tambien.
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_______________________

-Cole

DMong Aug 30, 2012 01:26 AM

Yeah, I did initially notice that they looked EXTREMELY similar..LOL!(go figure), but my real focus was simply on if both photos keyed-out as being real-deal Lake Chapala L.t.arcifera from the same line or Tapalpa L.ruthveni. But after you mentioned it, I looked at them again and could instantly see they were the very same snake..LOL!

~Doug
Image
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

DMong Aug 30, 2012 01:51 AM

For sure man. Many times when I look for something very specific and on purpose, it can lead me in complete circles and dead ends, and then other times I "accidentally" stumble onto even more interesting things than I ever thought possible..LOL!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

brianm616 Aug 30, 2012 06:26 PM

Here's one of girls from the two eggs that actually made it this year:


wildlines Aug 31, 2012 08:25 AM

Sure jimmy, what exactly are you looking for? I like that photo also except it's deceptive as far as the snakes true color. The flash makes him look orange but he is the normal red you would expect from arcifera.

brianm616 Aug 31, 2012 02:18 PM

here's the sire:

and the hatchling:

wildlines Sep 01, 2012 03:29 PM

These are 2 of my yearling male L.t.arcifera

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