Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This year I hatched out three clutches of caramels. From visual male to het females. There are Vpi line. I knew they had kink issues,but I hatched out 11 caramels and all of them are accordions. I was told incubation temps help. All three clutches different temps. 88.5, 87.6 and 86.8. Any help or info. Would be great.

I have hatched 10 or so caramels over the past few years. I have been lucky enough to not have any kinks ... "Knock on wood"

I incubate ALL my clutches, regardless of morph at 88.5-89.

All of my caramels and offspring are outcrossed. All T positive caramel albino lines are compatible so with my results and in my opinion outcrossing is key. I do not believe minor changes in incubation temps play a role.
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Best regards,
AlanColesReptiles

....accordians...wow.....

.....I think I would agree with Alan here.....the OP needs to get some new ,and different blood in there....go out and buy a caramel /something you want - male and try him....(cara-pastel--cara-mojo, etc etc).....spend the cash now before you waste too many years.,......you could even get a Mojave male het caramel ...different line....do the work and see where the snakes came from.....(I got snakes before(spider ) and it turned out he was related to like half my stock !)....

good luck....
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........JY

I believe it's just part of the beast. I have produced caramels since 2008. I have only had one kinked animal in that time. I have always been a big believer in out crossing. This year I had my best out crossed stuff go. 2 clutches of upscale/nerd x tsk hets. I made 8 caramels, had 8 kinkers. 3 lines of caramel didn't solve the problem. Kurt d.

There have been a lot of theories as to why some people get no or very few kinks and others get lots of them. My wild theory was that it might have to do with some nutrient that the caramel mutation requires or can't tolerate. What brand of rodent feed do your feeders eat?
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Randy Remington
anyone@snakemorphs.com
www.SnakeMorphs.com
FaceBook.com/SnakeMorphs

My rodent supplier uses ifa rodent food and also uses dog food. And no there's no red 40 in dog food. I also have a friend that uses Harland food and has has issues as well. My females are not related to my visual male. I've also heard it helps to have a morph male. Really interested on that one. I wouldnt mind get another male if that is the case

The first several breeders reporting long strings of no kinked caramels that I asked reported using Mazuri 6F feed rodents. But then I did eventually hear from one breeder who reported kinks and using Mazuri. But heck, might be worth a special colony just to put it to the test for next year.

Even if Mazuri does turn out to be the link it doesn’t mean that feed is generally better than the others; just that it happens to have or not have something that makes a difference when combined with whatever the caramel mutation is doing. For example, people and guinea pigs need vitamin C due to a mutation where our respective branches lost the ability to make our own but most other rodents don’t have this mutation and don’t need vitamin C in their food. There is a recessive mutation that can make a dog sensitive to copper.
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Randy Remington
anyone@snakemorphs.com
www.SnakeMorphs.com
FaceBook.com/SnakeMorphs

Good theory Randy. However, I use exclusively Mazuri, and I have hatched 50/50 kinked and non-kinked Caramels. I have even had the same female throw no kinks in her babies, to her throwing all kinks the following year. I think it is very random, although I have also heard the theory about incubating Caramels drier. I tried that one year, and had pretty good success, but then I got busy with everything, and always forget to keep the tub drier for the Caramel clutches now. This year I will not have any, so I'll have to remember for net year. Next year I have to be really careful, as I will be breeding my Spider Het Caramel girl next year. Need to be careful with that one, as there is definitely potential for errors in those eggs.
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Tim and Monica Bailey
Bailey & Bailey Reptiles

I would have to agree with "drier" during incubation as a very possible way to minimize kinks in caramels.
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Best regards,
AlanColesReptiles

Thanks for the info. Random could certianly explain your results of no kinks one year and all kinks another year from the same female but can you think of any other changes between those two clutches/years?

It's just that hearing reports of 50/50 or even all kinks like the op against reports from several other reliable sources of large numbers (10 - 50) of kinkless caramels in a row has me thinking there is some sort of environmental factor that varies from collection to collection. Sure it could be genetics but seems to me if the tendency to kink wasn't caused directly by the caramel gene and could be outbred then once it was lost it would never show up again in that line and we would hear how line xyz never kinks for the customers and thier customers. I'm thinking it might be something unexpected that the breeders without kinks might not even be aware of. If say it was intollerance to some nutrient not in Mazuri maybe it also exists in some water supplies explaining your and the other breeder that still got kinks with Mazuri (you don't supliment rodent feed at all, right)?

I know, grasping at straws here but seems there is just too much statistical variation between kinking from one collection to another to be random to me. I'm thinking there must be some factor that promotes or represses the tendency of the caramel gene to king and it's just not yet explained.
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Randy Remington
anyone@snakemorphs.com
www.SnakeMorphs.com
FaceBook.com/SnakeMorphs

...had these types of discussions for years also....2002 ...with Brian Barczyck even in Daytona....briefly.....
eggs that are too full...too fat....swelled to the point they have added pressure inside...can and will deform or kill the kids.......might help....

different boodlines mixed
non-kinked line morph male
het females from 3 lines
drier eggs
check temps of females and eggs....
and now I guess check the rodent food supply....

(I fed my rodents corn ,oats, Zeigler lab block, dog food, and all kinds of other stuff for treats)...

I have seen kinks ...and some years seem to be worse (water theory)....

the only 2 super black pastels I ever made went from egg to freezer in 5 minutes....same line, deep dark ,good line....kinked badly)...

never made caramels...
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........JY

>>eggs that are too full...too fat....swelled to the point they have added pressure inside...can and will deform or kill the kids.......might help....
>>........JY

Funny you say that...i have been using the egg crate no-sub method ever since my second clutch...and from time to time i have cut (on day 55) several that were obviously under pressure..Out of those only one was kinked (a normal not from caramel stuff),and it was a trainwreck!..However all of the caramels clutches i've incubated have had the pressure issue.Het to het,3 out of 4 kinked.(Not many,but i find this odd nonetheless).

Fast forward to this seasons fiasco..(This one was definitely under pressure when i cut it!)
://picasaweb.google.com/106978972539260500759/Dinker25PossHetTXPreviouslyProven25PossHetT#

So thanks for the heads up..i guess it's back to vermiculite for next years attempt!

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Charles Glaspie
picasaweb.google.com/coldthumb

I had an adult SK line Het Caramel female that I bred (in a breeding loan) to a completely different line male, and we only got one Caramel out of like 6 eggs, but it was a wreck. After that, I decided to sell the female and hope someone else had a male that would be compatible with her, or, there would be some progress in the incubation temperature theory. I have no regrets bailing out of the Caramel project, too many other cool morphs, and too much heartache attatched to the Caramel projects. If it was me, I would sell my Caramels and buy Ultramel Hets.

Dave

Caramel and ultramel are quite different.
Honestly, I prefer the golden look of the caramels.

I never taught that I would have caramels cause of kinks but I do. I have one amazing caramel adult female and she wont go. If she never produce, project will probably end there. Will see.

Good luck on anyone working on those projects and let the community know.
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love this world, don't hate it.

I keep my adults on a hot spot of 96F, including the Caramel females and I get good eggs out of Caramel females.

Also, I incubate all of my eggs, including the eggs containing Caramels and I get about 1 kinked Caramel out of 10 Caramels.

IMHO, temps, humidity...etc don't matter. I think the single most important thing with Caramels is NO INBREEDING! Father/Daughter, Brother/Sister...etc all produce higher number of kinks.

Go out, get a different bloodline male and breed him to your VPI females. I bet you'll have better results.

Regards,
Corey

I Agree with Corey -- OUT-CROSS!!!!!

For the public good... all my Caramels/Caramel Combos are out-crossed, I feed Mazuri, cook ALL my collection's clutches at 86, my boxes are "wet" -- and I have to date produced 23 Caramels/Caramel combos without a single kink.
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Bill Buchman

So you have good eggs out of caramel female (homozygous) not only heterozygous ?

I have seen some pictures of yours, with some slugs but didn't know if they all did.

Good to know !

>>I keep my adults on a hot spot of 96F, including the Caramel females and I get good eggs out of Caramel females.
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love this world, don't hate it.