Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Most Lampropeltis do not go through that goofy ontogenesis that yall's southeastern getula do.....

Anery is lacking red and axanthic is lacking yellow regardless if the replacing color is white (lack of pigment) or your incorrect rule of bluish........the animal must normally have the pigment to lack it.....simple as that........

Just my interpretation.....lol
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I agree, but it can also be extremely complicated beyond that with certain types of snakes.

I laugh when I see ads for "anery" splendida...

I now believe the so-called "anery" Hondos are actually more axanthic than anything else. That is why the inner light triad ring is ALWAYS pure white and never any shade of yellow, orange, or red as it would normally would on a tricolor, intermediate peach, or tangerine.
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

A good book to get you started understanding genetics is, "genetics for herpers". The reptile and amphibian breeders guide to genetics.

Scott

>>A good book to get you started understanding genetics is, "genetics for herpers". The reptile and amphibian breeders guide to genetics.
>>
>>Scott

I think most of us here understand genetics well.......not to say that book isn't a good one though, I will have to check it out.
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I think most of us do on here. Some others, WELL?

Scott

>>>>A good book to get you started understanding genetics is, "genetics for herpers". The reptile and amphibian breeders guide to genetics.
>>>>
>>>>Scott
>>
>>
>>I think most of us here understand genetics well.......not to say that book isn't a good one though, I will have to check it out.
>>-----
>>John Lassiter
>>Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
>>
>>

"A good book to get you started understanding genetics is, "genetics for herpers". The reptile and amphibian breeders guide to genetics"

Thanks for the book suggestion Scott. Maybe now I can "get started" on understanding basic reptile genetics....

Does the book go into all of these details?.......

Amphibians and reptiles skin contains three kinds of highly branched color cells called chromatophores. The chromatophores occur in three discrete layers. The top layer is generally made of xanthophores bearing yellow pigments; the middle layer includes iridophores, and the bottom layer has melanophores with black or brown melanin. In the typical green frog, light penetrates to the iridophores, which act like tiny mirrors to reflect and scatter mostly blue light back into the xanthopores above them. The xanthopores contain yellow pigments, and act as yellow filters so the light escaping to the skin surface appears green to our eyes. If a frog lacks the yellow xanthophores, blue light scatters back and the frog appears bright blue.

Iridophores do not synthesize pigments, but reflect and refract color. They contain platelets that produce a scattering effect. The real advantage to these stacks of pigment cells lies in their potential to create color changes. The animal can darken its color by moving the melanin pigment. By manipulating the three types of cells, a wide range of colors can be produced, usually extending from bright green to shades of brown and grey.

Generally xanthophores contain pteridines (synthesized) and are yellow, but they can also produce red pigments. Sometimes the top layer may contain erythrophores as well as xanthophores.

Erythrophores contain carotenoids (absorbed through diet) which produce intermediate colors like orange, reddish-orange, and yellowish-orange. The distinction is not always made, as sometimes pteridine and carotenoids are found in the same cell.

Chromatophore Subtypes - xanthophores, iridophores and melanophores contain all elements of all the chromatophore types. Thus, melanophores contain pterinosomes and the iridophore plates (called reflecting platelets), but what makes them distinctly one type or another is the degree to which they contain the other structures. Melanophores are melanophores because they contain around 99.9% melanosomes and only a small percentage of the other structures. This is important to note, because this fact is what gave rise to the single progenitor theory for chromatophres.

Melanophores - contain mostly melanosomes and are capable of two forms of pigment production. Eumelanin is brown to black and pheomelanin is orange to rust or rusty brown. Melanophores, unlike melanocytes in mammals, generally do not inject their melanosomes into keratinocytes. They are also usually able to move their melanosomes into their dendrites or into the perikaryon depending on neurohormonal stimulation. The melanins are contained within the melanosomes.

Xanthophores - contain two major pigment bodies the pterinosomes containing pteridines and vesicles that contain fats with stored carotenoids. Another class of organelle may exist in which the pteridines are converted to drosopterins and some people have suggested the name drosopterinosome. However, since drosopterins are made from pteridines, this may be a bit of a splitter attitude, and really may not be valid. But it cannot be denied that yellow pteridine rich cells occur within microns of orange or red drosopterin rich cells, so there may be something to the separation. At any rate, xanthophores can be divided into at least two subtypes.

•Yellow xanthophores - contain organelles called pterinosomes that are pterinidine rich and range from creamy yellow to orange. Since these cells are yellow to yellow orange and the term xanthophore can apply to the red xanthophores as well, there is a good argument to refer to this subtype as luteophores, but that term has yet to catch on.

•Red xanthophores (erythrophores) - pterinosomes (drosopterinosomes) are rich in drosopterins which range from orange to red and even violet. These cells are more easily seen on histology than their yellow counterparts.

Color Abnormalities:

Here is a list of color abnormality definitions so you can see why color abnormalities are a group of conditions that are problematic to name.

•RED PIGMENT
•Erythrism /Erythristic - excessive production and deposition, or distribution of red pigments (orange possibly).
•Anerythrism /Anerythristic - lack of production of pigments in the darker orange to red range.

•Hypoerythrism /Hypoerythristic - reduction in the amount of darker orange to red pigments so that the appearance of this color is largely absent except for traces or appears "washed out."

•YELLOW PIGMENT
•Xanthism / Xanthic - excessive production and deposition, or distribution of yellow pigments (orange possibly).
•Axanthism /Axanthic - lack of yellow and lighter orange pigments, depending on the point in the pigment cascade, this mutation can also cause corresponding anerythrism since erythric pigments (drosopterins) appear to come from the more yellow pteridines biochemically.

•Hypoxanthism / Hypoxanthic - reduction int he amount of yellow or lighter orange pigments so that the appearance of this color is only found in trace amounts or appears "washed out." This may also result in hypoerythrism since the red pigments appear to be made from the yellow pteridines.

•BLACK PIGMENT
•Melanism / Melanistic - excessive producution and deposition, or distribution of melanin pigments (may be orange if pheomelanin to black if eumelanin).
•Amelanism / Amelanistic - lack of melanin production. At least three basic forms are possible, though whether all forms have been observed is questionable. 1) amelanism where the chemical cascade is defected before eumelanin and pheomelanins take separate biochemical routes, resulting in a complete lack of melanin production. 2) aeumelanism - where only eumelanin production is blocked. 3) apheomelanism where only production of pheomelanins is blocked.
•Hypomelanism / Hypomelanistic - condition resulting in the reduced production of melanins. At least three types are possible by restriction of production at the initial stages of melanin production, at the eumalnin production cascade or at the pheomelanin cascade.

•IRIDOPHORE GRANULES

•Iridism / Iridistic - excessive production and deposition, or distribution of iridophore platelets (this is, as yet, only a theoretical condition).

•Aniridism / Aniridistic - (again theoretical - I have not heard this reported) lack of the formation of refractile platelets in iridophores.

•Hypoiridism / Hypoiridistic - (theoretical) reduction in the number of refractile platelets formed in iridophores.

Leukism (Leucism)

Pronunciation Problems to Ponder

Many questions have been asked of me as a herpetologist and veterinarian. One of these is the nature of leucism. First of all, it is NOT pronounced "loo-si-zm" saying that immediately identifies a person as poorly educated in scientific and medical terminology. The correct pronunciation is "loo-ki-zm." In Classical Latin the C is always pronounced like K - the so called hard C sound. You do not call a neoplasm of blood cells "loo-see-mee-ah" it is pronounced "loo-kee-mee-ah." The rule is the same for the prefix leuc- or leuk- across the board. White blood cells are pronounced "loo- ko- site" not "loose- o- site" (which incidentally, is spelled leukocyte or leucocyte with the k form being more common, but both correct). It is "loo- ko-" in the words leucoencephalomalacia and all other words with the prefix. Arrogant as it sounds, in many medical circles the mispronunciation of basic words like that makes people think of you as poorly educated and without a firm grasp of scientific or medical language. In fact, one colleague of mine once heard another doctor say "loo-sis-tic" and said "did you hear that? Where did he get his doctorate? From an online college staffed by trailer trash?" Ok, I agree that is harsh, but similar (though more tactfully expressed sentiments ) are frequently found in the halls of academia. So mispronouncing words can make people dismiss you as a rube, so make an effort not to do it.

Where does this come from? Leuc- is the Latin form of the Greek Leukos. Thus, technically any word that is spelled with the leuc- prefix can be spelled with the Greek prefix instead and spelled leuk-. An example is the word leukocyte. The Greek is used, but it is acceptable (though more rare) to spell it with the Latin to form leucocyte. In the case of leucism the opposite has become true. The Latin form has become more widespread, but the Greek is equally valid. Thus, leukism is correct. In fact, I have increasingly begun to spell it with the Greek spelling because of the pronunciation issue.

Some have suggested that the S sound is apt since it comes from Greek and is transformed into the Latin, but this is a form of grasping at straws in order to garner some reason to preserve the incorrect pronunciation. The scientific terms are based (ideally) on the Latin pronunciation. Even the scientific names of animals come from various languages (Gopherus the genus of the gopher tortoise actually comes from French), but they are "latinized." The standard Latin in science is Classical Latin. That is the Latin that was the Emperor's Latin during the Pax Romana. Another Latin did exist called the Vulgate (Vulgar Latin) which was the Latin spoken by the commoners, mostly illiterate and lower class Romans. This Latin is what ultimately spreads and becomes the common Latin after the fall of Rome, and the so called Church Latin. Think of it this way, the difference is like the difference between the Queen's English and Cockney. The ideal pronunciation in science was decided to be based on the "higher" form of Latin, Classical Latin. Thus, any C is pronounced as a C not an S. The use of an S sound is Vulgate - Vulgar Latin. So if you want to be vulgar you can be, but it is better to sound like you are educated.

Unfortunately, most people that pronounce it "loo-si-zm" are hobbyists that are poorly trained in medical terminology, if they are trained at all. Most know nothing about science beyond their high school biology and chemistry classes. It is very difficult to correct people that have formed an entire community which is equally badly educated. You fall into a form of peer pressure to be wrong. If you pronounce a word correctly when everybody else is pronouncing it wrong you are looked at as a jerk or a wierdo. Veterinarians and some herpetologists then adopt the incorrect pronunciation so they will not offend their clients.

This is what scientists and medical professionals have to combat. Peer ignorance pressure is difficult to overcome. I can remember speaking to a group of hobbyists not long ago and someone asked me a question about leukism. I corrected their pronounciation very politely, but you should have seen the looks from the whole room. I said, "I'm sorry, do you mean leukism?" The person looked a little puzzled. I continued by saying "the condition is called leukism, it comes from the Greek leukos meaning white." The whole room smiled and looked rather odd. I asked several people afterward why they looked odd. They laughed and said "everybody says 'leusism'." When I pointed out that was not correct, they replied "maybe, but if you say it like you say it, people will think you are wierd."
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That was actually a pretty good post on pronunciation problems.
-----

Yeah, I found all that info on the proper pronunciation of leucism/leucistic pretty interesting too.
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yeah great post. You can spell check for me anytime.....LOL!

Scott

>>Yeah, I found all that info on the proper pronunciation of leucism/leucistic pretty interesting too.
>>-----
>>"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
>>
>>serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Great post Doug. No problem, glad to help. The book starts off with the basics and goes on to the much more advanced genetics of snakes and amphibians.

One of the abnormalities I didn't see listed here is albinism, very detrimental to any living animal. Loss of pigment, photophobia and many times ostracized and killed by it's own kind. Easy prey for predators too.

Melanisam can serve an animal well depending on it's environment. Black leopards (Panthera pardus) black jags (Panthera onca) do well in dark habitats. Plus does not have the detrimental effects like albinism.

Sorry for rambling on! It is a good book worth checking out.

Scott

>>"A good book to get you started understanding genetics is, "genetics for herpers". The reptile and amphibian breeders guide to genetics"
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the book suggestion Scott. Maybe now I can "get started" on understanding basic reptile genetics....
>>
>> Does the book go into all of these details?.......
>>
>>
>> Amphibians and reptiles skin contains three kinds of highly branched color cells called chromatophores. The chromatophores occur in three discrete layers. The top layer is generally made of xanthophores bearing yellow pigments; the middle layer includes iridophores, and the bottom layer has melanophores with black or brown melanin. In the typical green frog, light penetrates to the iridophores, which act like tiny mirrors to reflect and scatter mostly blue light back into the xanthopores above them. The xanthopores contain yellow pigments, and act as yellow filters so the light escaping to the skin surface appears green to our eyes. If a frog lacks the yellow xanthophores, blue light scatters back and the frog appears bright blue.
>>
>> Iridophores do not synthesize pigments, but reflect and refract color. They contain platelets that produce a scattering effect. The real advantage to these stacks of pigment cells lies in their potential to create color changes. The animal can darken its color by moving the melanin pigment. By manipulating the three types of cells, a wide range of colors can be produced, usually extending from bright green to shades of brown and grey.
>>
>> Generally xanthophores contain pteridines (synthesized) and are yellow, but they can also produce red pigments. Sometimes the top layer may contain erythrophores as well as xanthophores.
>>
>> Erythrophores contain carotenoids (absorbed through diet) which produce intermediate colors like orange, reddish-orange, and yellowish-orange. The distinction is not always made, as sometimes pteridine and carotenoids are found in the same cell.
>>
>> Chromatophore Subtypes - xanthophores, iridophores and melanophores contain all elements of all the chromatophore types. Thus, melanophores contain pterinosomes and the iridophore plates (called reflecting platelets), but what makes them distinctly one type or another is the degree to which they contain the other structures. Melanophores are melanophores because they contain around 99.9% melanosomes and only a small percentage of the other structures. This is important to note, because this fact is what gave rise to the single progenitor theory for chromatophres.
>>
>>Melanophores - contain mostly melanosomes and are capable of two forms of pigment production. Eumelanin is brown to black and pheomelanin is orange to rust or rusty brown. Melanophores, unlike melanocytes in mammals, generally do not inject their melanosomes into keratinocytes. They are also usually able to move their melanosomes into their dendrites or into the perikaryon depending on neurohormonal stimulation. The melanins are contained within the melanosomes.
>>
>>Xanthophores - contain two major pigment bodies the pterinosomes containing pteridines and vesicles that contain fats with stored carotenoids. Another class of organelle may exist in which the pteridines are converted to drosopterins and some people have suggested the name drosopterinosome. However, since drosopterins are made from pteridines, this may be a bit of a splitter attitude, and really may not be valid. But it cannot be denied that yellow pteridine rich cells occur within microns of orange or red drosopterin rich cells, so there may be something to the separation. At any rate, xanthophores can be divided into at least two subtypes.
>>
>>•Yellow xanthophores - contain organelles called pterinosomes that are pterinidine rich and range from creamy yellow to orange. Since these cells are yellow to yellow orange and the term xanthophore can apply to the red xanthophores as well, there is a good argument to refer to this subtype as luteophores, but that term has yet to catch on.
>>
>>•Red xanthophores (erythrophores) - pterinosomes (drosopterinosomes) are rich in drosopterins which range from orange to red and even violet. These cells are more easily seen on histology than their yellow counterparts.
>>
>>Color Abnormalities:
>>
>>Here is a list of color abnormality definitions so you can see why color abnormalities are a group of conditions that are problematic to name.
>>
>>
>>•RED PIGMENT
>>•Erythrism /Erythristic - excessive production and deposition, or distribution of red pigments (orange possibly).
>>•Anerythrism /Anerythristic - lack of production of pigments in the darker orange to red range.
>>
>>•Hypoerythrism /Hypoerythristic - reduction in the amount of darker orange to red pigments so that the appearance of this color is largely absent except for traces or appears "washed out."
>>
>>•YELLOW PIGMENT
>>•Xanthism / Xanthic - excessive production and deposition, or distribution of yellow pigments (orange possibly).
>>•Axanthism /Axanthic - lack of yellow and lighter orange pigments, depending on the point in the pigment cascade, this mutation can also cause corresponding anerythrism since erythric pigments (drosopterins) appear to come from the more yellow pteridines biochemically.
>>
>>•Hypoxanthism / Hypoxanthic - reduction int he amount of yellow or lighter orange pigments so that the appearance of this color is only found in trace amounts or appears "washed out." This may also result in hypoerythrism since the red pigments appear to be made from the yellow pteridines.
>>
>>•BLACK PIGMENT
>>•Melanism / Melanistic - excessive producution and deposition, or distribution of melanin pigments (may be orange if pheomelanin to black if eumelanin).
>>•Amelanism / Amelanistic - lack of melanin production. At least three basic forms are possible, though whether all forms have been observed is questionable. 1) amelanism where the chemical cascade is defected before eumelanin and pheomelanins take separate biochemical routes, resulting in a complete lack of melanin production. 2) aeumelanism - where only eumelanin production is blocked. 3) apheomelanism where only production of pheomelanins is blocked.
>>•Hypomelanism / Hypomelanistic - condition resulting in the reduced production of melanins. At least three types are possible by restriction of production at the initial stages of melanin production, at the eumalnin production cascade or at the pheomelanin cascade.
>>
>>•IRIDOPHORE GRANULES
>>
>>•Iridism / Iridistic - excessive production and deposition, or distribution of iridophore platelets (this is, as yet, only a theoretical condition).
>>
>>•Aniridism / Aniridistic - (again theoretical - I have not heard this reported) lack of the formation of refractile platelets in iridophores.
>>
>>•Hypoiridism / Hypoiridistic - (theoretical) reduction in the number of refractile platelets formed in iridophores.
>>
>> Leukism (Leucism)
>>
>>Pronunciation Problems to Ponder
>>
>>Many questions have been asked of me as a herpetologist and veterinarian. One of these is the nature of leucism. First of all, it is NOT pronounced "loo-si-zm" saying that immediately identifies a person as poorly educated in scientific and medical terminology. The correct pronunciation is "loo-ki-zm." In Classical Latin the C is always pronounced like K - the so called hard C sound. You do not call a neoplasm of blood cells "loo-see-mee-ah" it is pronounced "loo-kee-mee-ah." The rule is the same for the prefix leuc- or leuk- across the board. White blood cells are pronounced "loo- ko- site" not "loose- o- site" (which incidentally, is spelled leukocyte or leucocyte with the k form being more common, but both correct). It is "loo- ko-" in the words leucoencephalomalacia and all other words with the prefix. Arrogant as it sounds, in many medical circles the mispronunciation of basic words like that makes people think of you as poorly educated and without a firm grasp of scientific or medical language. In fact, one colleague of mine once heard another doctor say "loo-sis-tic" and said "did you hear that? Where did he get his doctorate? From an online college staffed by trailer trash?" Ok, I agree that is harsh, but similar (though more tactfully expressed sentiments ) are frequently found in the halls of academia. So mispronouncing words can make people dismiss you as a rube, so make an effort not to do it.
>>
>>
>>Where does this come from? Leuc- is the Latin form of the Greek Leukos. Thus, technically any word that is spelled with the leuc- prefix can be spelled with the Greek prefix instead and spelled leuk-. An example is the word leukocyte. The Greek is used, but it is acceptable (though more rare) to spell it with the Latin to form leucocyte. In the case of leucism the opposite has become true. The Latin form has become more widespread, but the Greek is equally valid. Thus, leukism is correct. In fact, I have increasingly begun to spell it with the Greek spelling because of the pronunciation issue.
>>
>> Some have suggested that the S sound is apt since it comes from Greek and is transformed into the Latin, but this is a form of grasping at straws in order to garner some reason to preserve the incorrect pronunciation. The scientific terms are based (ideally) on the Latin pronunciation. Even the scientific names of animals come from various languages (Gopherus the genus of the gopher tortoise actually comes from French), but they are "latinized." The standard Latin in science is Classical Latin. That is the Latin that was the Emperor's Latin during the Pax Romana. Another Latin did exist called the Vulgate (Vulgar Latin) which was the Latin spoken by the commoners, mostly illiterate and lower class Romans. This Latin is what ultimately spreads and becomes the common Latin after the fall of Rome, and the so called Church Latin. Think of it this way, the difference is like the difference between the Queen's English and Cockney. The ideal pronunciation in science was decided to be based on the "higher" form of Latin, Classical Latin. Thus, any C is pronounced as a C not an S. The use of an S sound is Vulgate - Vulgar Latin. So if you want to be vulgar you can be, but it is better to sound like you are educated.
>>
>> Unfortunately, most people that pronounce it "loo-si-zm" are hobbyists that are poorly trained in medical terminology, if they are trained at all. Most know nothing about science beyond their high school biology and chemistry classes. It is very difficult to correct people that have formed an entire community which is equally badly educated. You fall into a form of peer pressure to be wrong. If you pronounce a word correctly when everybody else is pronouncing it wrong you are looked at as a jerk or a wierdo. Veterinarians and some herpetologists then adopt the incorrect pronunciation so they will not offend their clients.
>>
>> This is what scientists and medical professionals have to combat. Peer ignorance pressure is difficult to overcome. I can remember speaking to a group of hobbyists not long ago and someone asked me a question about leukism. I corrected their pronounciation very politely, but you should have seen the looks from the whole room. I said, "I'm sorry, do you mean leukism?" The person looked a little puzzled. I continued by saying "the condition is called leukism, it comes from the Greek leukos meaning white." The whole room smiled and looked rather odd. I asked several people afterward why they looked odd. They laughed and said "everybody says 'leusism'." When I pointed out that was not correct, they replied "maybe, but if you say it like you say it, people will think you are wierd."
>>-----
>>"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
>>
>>serpentinespecialties.webs.com

We typically use the term albinism with amelanism....
The total lack of melanin.....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

...but the term Albino refers to a special genetic condition in mammals.

Amelanistic is the correct term for reptiles as you've stated.

All Albinos are Amelanistic
But
Not all Amelanistics are Albinos!

>>...but the term Albino refers to a special genetic condition in mammals.
>>
>>Amelanistic is the correct term for reptiles as you've stated.
>>
>>
>> All Albinos are Amelanistic
>> But
>> Not all Amelanistics are Albinos!
>>
>>

Yes I agree...
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

True, but same meaning and detrimental effects.

Scott

>>We typically use the term albinism with amelanism....
>>The total lack of melanin.....
>>-----
>>John Lassiter
>>Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
>>
>>

And some make it to adulthood...

-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I am getting humgry...

>>I agree, but it can also be extremely complicated beyond that with certain types of snakes.
>>
>> I laugh when I see ads for "anery" splendida...
>>
>>I now believe the so-called "anery" Hondos are actually more axanthic than anything else. That is why the inner light triad ring is ALWAYS pure white and never any shade of yellow, orange, or red as it would normally would on a tricolor, intermediate peach, or tangerine.
>>-----
>>"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
>>
>>serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yea....after all those beers I shouldn't have posted that....I even got it in a new thread on accident......lol
But I understand what you are saying......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

It's been better than ten years since I've had a beer... but being a fan of rum & coke... there's been two instances where I've made a post that on the next day I've said... "You really shouldn't have posted that"

Thankfully though, all comments were justified... however, discretion would still have been more appropriate.

Gerry

>>It's been better than ten years since I've had a beer... but being a fan of rum & coke... there's been two instances where I've made a post that on the next day I've said... "You really shouldn't have posted that"
>>
>>Thankfully though, all comments were justified... however, discretion would still have been more appropriate.

I hear you loud and clear....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Doug, I've seen hatchling L.g. nigrita and L.g.splendida with red on their belly scales...Where did THAT come from??

:Mark
-----
Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Mark,..Yes, I'm very aware that some of the getula complex hatchlings can start life with some variable shades of red in the beginning that don't typically display it at all later on, and they soon lose all traces of it as they mature just a bit. I've seen hatchling nigrita, sticticeps, getula and holbrooki with some areas on their bellies that are a shade of light red/pink too. I certainly can't explain any of it, just like nobody else here probably can. With that said, I certainly wouldn't call them anerythristics though if they typically only involve a predominant yellow coloration..

I am the very last person to think (or ever claim) that all reptile genetics is simple and easily explained or termed. Some is very straight-forward and simple, and other things regarding it will likely never be understood at all. Quite often, the more that is learned, the less that is actually understood in my opinion. There is just too much that can go on, and too many different variables and causes to understand it all.
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I've seen this too on quite a few getula hatchlings. One probable cause is genetics passed down, anthor might be environmental. All the getula hatchlings soon lost that coloration, I've owned serval brooksi, that lost their reds/ yellows when they started to mature.

Scott

>>Mark,..Yes, I'm very aware that some of the getula complex hatchlings can start life with some variable shades of red in the beginning that don't typically display it at all later on, and they soon lose all traces of it as they mature just a bit. I've seen hatchling nigrita, sticticeps, getula and holbrooki with some areas on their bellies that are a shade of light red/pink too. I certainly can't explain any of it, just like nobody else here probably can. With that said, I certainly wouldn't call them anerythristics though if they typically only involve a predominant yellow coloration..
>>
>> I am the very last person to think (or ever claim) that all reptile genetics is simple and easily explained or termed. Some is very straight-forward and simple, and other things regarding it will likely never be understood at all. Quite often, the more that is learned, the less that is actually understood in my opinion. There is just too much that can go on, and too many different variables and causes to understand it all.
>>-----
>>"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
>>
>>serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I was only concerned with the kings of the west that are usually said to have no red at all. If it displays red at any stage of its life, well....it still had red.....and/or the capacity to show it, right?

:Mark
-----
Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

I would have had to see the king/kings. Living in NM, I've caught countless splendida, never have seen any traces of red in them. Doesn't mean it can't happen and if it does, more than likely it's a coloration they will grow out of. Yes if they had red and grew out of it, they had red. Nature has a way of weeding out animals that don't fit the norm. Man has a way to propagate them.

Scott

>>I was only concerned with the kings of the west that are usually said to have no red at all. If it displays red at any stage of its life, well....it still had red.....and/or the capacity to show it, right?
>>
>>:Mark
>>-----
>>Surrender Dorothy!
>>
>>crimsonking.piczo.com/

Holbrooki found in East Texas and Western Louisiana have red/orange ventrals...this trait can be found down the coast to the Copano Bay.....
Some of these animals in their southern range are Splendida intergrades.....

I've never seen pure splendida with the red/orange coloration like I have holbrooki.....

But Mark, you are right...they DO have the ability to express it.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

It seems that only hatchling splendida and nigrita ever display any reddish/pink on the belly and/or ventrolateral areas and it quickly disappears within a couple sheds.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Cal kings too, but very few.

FXCD0044 by RossAZ480, on Flickr
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This is an albino cal king het Ghost. Although intense as a baby, it faded, but was still there as an adult. This female also produced some of the "light phase" Ghost a couple of years ago.

Kerby...

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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

That one has a lot! Is that the only one you ever saw any orange on?
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I had a couple that came out of that breeding projects over a couple of years. That is the only pairing that I have seen that in cal kings.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

.......Crazy!..LOL!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Not a California King though....

East Texas Speckled King w/c neonate

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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Wow, that is way more red than I thought it would be.
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>>Wow, that is way more red than I thought it would be.
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>>

These with the brilliant red out of the egg lose it and become yellow/orange as adults.....

Some holbrooki, like the ones in central and eastern Louisiana, are "called salt and pepper kings" because they are almost black and white with no yellow.....

Throughout the splendida range the variation is very similar.....There are bright yellow ones to almost white ones with very little yellow.
Personally, I have never seen a splendida with red on it as a hatchling, but I have seen bright orange/yellow that fades to a nice yellow.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

In some splendida I've seen brown replacing the black with bright yellow markings. Very attractive.

Scott

>>>>
>>
>>These with the brilliant red out of the egg lose it and become yellow/orange as adults.....
>>
>>Some holbrooki, like the ones in central and eastern Louisiana, are "called salt and pepper kings" because they are almost black and white with no yellow.....
>>
>>Throughout the splendida range the variation is very similar.....There are bright yellow ones to almost white ones with very little yellow.
>>Personally, I have never seen a splendida with red on it as a hatchling, but I have seen bright orange/yellow that fades to a nice yellow.
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>>John Lassiter
>>Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
>>
>>

>>In some splendida I've seen brown replacing the black with bright yellow markings. Very attractive.

Those are the hypos...

Here's mine:

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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

.....and many other subspecies too for that matter.....nigrita, splendida, californiae, holbrooki, getula, sticticeps, and probably nigra can all display it here and there as hatchlings.

Nice photo illustrating that!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks. Kind of strange how its there, then fades away. Why was it there in the first place? lol I'm not seriously asking that question though. I don't think anyone knows.
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LOL!!,....I agree, I think that will always be one of life's great mysteries...
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com